Author Topic: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?  (Read 19122 times)

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Offline Rotus623

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Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« on: August 03, 2014, 09:49:48 PM »
Hey guys I have an 898 HD. Great unit, I am very happy with it. I understand that the DI is really DI from SI because there is no downward facing piezo, but I just can not seem to be able to pull fish up with the DI view, when I can clearly see them in SI. Does anyone have any pointers or should I just hide the DI view?


Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2014, 08:51:09 AM »
I have all my DI views hidden...but that's just because my fishing style doesn't have much use for the DI fan beams...

For a little better DI success, you can try the following...::

*DI Width setting (under the Sonar tab) to "Narrow"...this tells the unit to only display returns "common" in both the left and right SI beams (the SI beam's overlap under the boat)...

*DI Sensitivity higher to show weaker returns...

*Upper Range setting to a selection that eliminates some of the upper water column...(this will, in effect zoom vertically the remaining echoes making them easier to see)...

Rickie

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 01:11:14 PM »
Cool thanks as always Rickie! How much better is the detail in te dedicated DI units? Couldn't be but so much better, otherwise why wouldn't Hbird have not changed the layout in the new x99 units?

Offline Redge

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 07:07:04 PM »
I have a 1198 and use the DI a lot!  Fish standing submerged timber all fall and winter, my partner watches split screen DI/2D all day on the 1198.  I have a 958 up front, it does have better DI than the 1198.  I find either one perfect for how I fish.

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 10:32:18 PM »
Cool thanks Redge. Do you find that you wish the 1198 has a little more DI sensitivity available on it? I find that often in order to see fish and timber with DI on my 898 I have to crank up the sensitivity pretty high, and normally dont have enough juice, or it washes the bottom out before I can see any details.

Offline Redge

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 08:21:51 AM »
Rotus my 1198 seems to have plenty of sensitivity, however my 958 could sure use some more!  I even replaced the TD thinking mine was going bad.  On my 958 I normally run the 16+ sensitivity sometimes more.  Not sure what that is all about. 

One thing to bear in mind is, since we are fishing piles this time of year, I never run over the pile with the big motor if I am trying to catch.  Therefore I am always looking at the 958 DI image when passing over a pile.  I do use the 1198 DI when just out exploring, and searching for fish, but if I have seen the fish on the SI, then I am up front going to fish for them.

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 11:39:37 AM »
Cool, that makes sense. Find the fish with SI with the big motor, then head up front with DI and a set waypoint and find your pile. I do the same thing, just typically with SI, as I have an 898 on the console and a 798 on the bow.

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 11:10:27 PM »
So I was fooling with my DI settings on some old recordings, and  noticed that when the water was 25' deep or more, I could get better images with the DI beam set to wide. Not sure exactly why, but that's what I have found.

Offline mako9man2

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 02:44:46 PM »
I have all my DI views hidden...but that's just because my fishing style doesn't have much use for the DI fan beams...

For a little better DI success, you can try the following...::

*DI Width setting (under the Sonar tab) to "Narrow"...this tells the unit to only display returns "common" in both the left and right SI beams (the SI beam's overlap under the boat)...

*DI Sensitivity higher to show weaker returns...

*Upper Range setting to a selection that eliminates some of the upper water column...(this will, in effect zoom vertically the remaining echoes making them easier to see)...

Rickie

Thanks Rickie
I tried this today and it helped my DI images a lot.  I will continue experimenting with this set up as I believe it can get even better.

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 02:51:45 PM »
Yes but Mako if you have the 597Di, like what is in your sig, you should be getting super crisp images because you have a dedicated DI piezo.

Offline sfw1960

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 06:24:59 PM »
I use mine (998 & 899) - run it on WIDE and I usually run the sensitivity @ 11-13 and the contrast around 8-9.
Maybe I'll goof with the beam width, because Rickie's no n00B.....  ;)

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2014, 06:35:29 PM »
Nah I think the beam width is subjective. But yea Rickie is all about some crisp images. So what do you think SF, the DI from SI is comparable to having a dedicated DI piezo?

Offline sfw1960

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2014, 07:03:33 PM »
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
The DI crystal is considerable smaller and actually the 2D suffers from it - but it does give much higher definition, I only own SI machines because of the shallow cold water walleyes I am fond of chasing, and they are basically inverting the SI image as it's folded half way @ 90.
Kind of a "smoke & mirrors" thing, good old CGI if you will...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-generated_imagery

I would rather have "gritty" images and see a lot than "prettier" images and see less - if that makes sense.
And Rickie likes a "purdy pitcher" like any of us, but I use my stuff to CATCH MORE FISH!!!!!!!!!  :)


Offline mako9man2

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 08:27:42 PM »
Yes but Mako if you have the 597Di, like what is in your sig, you should be getting super crisp images because you have a dedicated DI piezo.

Forgot to update my profile.  The only unit on my boat is the 999ci HD SI

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2014, 08:54:29 PM »
You guys can run a HB DI xducer on your SI unit ya know...

http://www.humminbird.com/Category/Support/FAQ/DIxducerSIunit/

And if you choose the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T (instead of the XNT 9 DI T)...even the 2d will work correctly....


Rickie
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 08:56:17 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2014, 09:07:21 PM »
So SFW are you saying that these units have a larger scan area in the DI range, than the dedicated DI units, with the sacrifice of detail?

Mako, thanks for clarifying. Lets see some DI images!!!

Rickie, I know that you have done a lot of research on using DI transducers on the SI units. If I am correct, it will pop up on the Left SI channel and run from top to bottom? Also, I guess Humminbird has decided that it is not bad for the unit to use this transducer? Sorry the link you posted just takes me to the humminbird intro page.

EDIT: So I found the FAQ that you were speaking of. But I still am wondering, does the DI show up on the DI view or the SI view? And the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T only comes in a trolling motor mount?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 09:19:24 PM by Rotus623 »

Offline sfw1960

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 09:16:19 PM »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 09:24:16 PM »
So SFW are you saying that these units have a larger scan area in the DI range, than the dedicated DI units, with the sacrifice of detail?

Mako, thanks for clarifying. Lets see some DI images!!!

Rickie, I know that you have done a lot of research on using DI transducers on the SI units. If I am correct, it will pop up on the Left SI channel and run from top to bottom? Also, I guess Humminbird has decided that it is not bad for the unit to use this transducer? Sorry the link you posted just takes me to the humminbird intro page.

EDIT: So I found the FAQ that you were speaking of. But I still am wondering, does the DI show up on the DI view or the SI view?

In the HB SI units (DI from SI technology)...

The Di sonar in the HB Si units is a blend of both the left and right Si sonar:
*Take the right Si sonar and rotate it 90 degrees clockwise.
*Take the left Si sonar and flip it horizontally (mirror image) and then rotate it 90 degrees clockwise.
*Overlay the two images and you have a DI sonar image


*DI Width Narrow shows all returns "common" in both left and right SI..(the overlap at the bottom)..
*Di Width Wide shows all returns in both left and right SI...
*Di Width Medium is somewhere in between...
__________________________

Connecting a HB DI xducer to a HB SI connects the DI piezo (in the DI xducer)...to the right SI channel in the head unit...so only the right SI would show an image in the SI view...(the left side of the image would be blank)...

The DI view from the DI xducer setup would look like a normal DI image...

Rickie
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 09:26:06 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2014, 09:30:46 PM »
Okay thanks Rickie. So to clarify, left SI is blank, right SI is a false image, and DI looks normal. And obviously since H-bird said this is okay to do, they are not concerned with burning out the left channel of the SI??? My guess would be that your testing (and Greg passing it on) has helped them to realize that this is even possible. 

By the way, you're the man!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 09:31:56 PM by Rotus623 »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 10:34:48 PM »
Okay thanks Rickie. So to clarify, left SI is blank, right SI is a false image, and DI looks normal. And obviously since H-bird said this is okay to do, they are not concerned with burning out the left channel of the SI??? My guess would be that your testing (and Greg passing it on) has helped them to realize that this is even possible. 

Left SI is (indeed) blank...(there is no piezo in the DI xducer that lines up to the left SI channel of the SI unit)...No data for left SI channel = no left SI image...
Right SI is echo data processed (into the right SI orientation) from the DI xducer's down pointing piezo...

So the right SI will still look like a normal right SI ...and still scrolling from top to bottom...

The DI view will still look like a normal "DI from SI" view ...and still scrolling from right to left...

Both will show the same echoes...but each in their own processed orientation...
___________

I guess no one has returned units with burnt out transmitters from this DI setup...

It does give better DI images in the SI unit...and this is simply because the data for the DI views (in this DI xducer setup)...are coming from a piezo that is pointing straight down...instead of from piezoes pointing sideways...

Rickie
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 10:35:51 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2014, 10:54:10 PM »
Cool thanks for all of your time. I am contemplating whether to use it the way it is, or to add on the DI ducer. Target separation and distinguishing different species is my main goal.

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2014, 12:08:56 AM »
I wonder how different the resolution on the 2d is between the transducers that you mentioned Rickie. I'd like to mount the ducer on my transom but the better one is a trolling motor mount....

Offline mako9man2

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2014, 10:15:22 AM »
You guys can run a HB DI xducer on your SI unit ya know...

http://www.humminbird.com/Category/Support/FAQ/DIxducerSIunit/

And if you choose the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T (instead of the XNT 9 DI T)...even the 2d will work correctly....


Rickie


I did not know I could do that.  When I bought the 999 I just assumed that the DI was the same.  From the brief reading I did on the subject last night there appears to be several ways to connect a DI transducer.  Is there someplace I can see a diagram of these various options and a list of accessories required for each option?  I see the SWITCH but expect there is more to it than that.

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 10:35:27 AM »
Got our wheels turnin' didnt it! I am trying to figure out a way to get the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T to work on the transom because it is a TM transducer. The XNT 9 DI T (transom mount) uses a smaller element for the 2d sonar. Not gonna fly!!! Although, Im not sure really what the difference in image quality will be.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 04:14:20 PM by Rotus623 »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2014, 05:17:16 PM »
Rickie, I noticed that the XNT 9 DI T uses 200/455 for 2d sonar. I also noticed that the 800 and up DI units use this transducer. How would this work on the SI units that use 200/83khz? I just find it odd that the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T is only available in the TM mount. Also, why wouldnt they have made it 200/455 like the XNT 9 DI T? Maybe the WIDE stands for 83khz? I am also assuming that the DI units have the transducer option of 200/455 and 200/83. Sorry man Im confused.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2014, 01:26:20 AM »
I wonder how different the resolution on the 2d is between the transducers that you mentioned Rickie. I'd like to mount the ducer on my transom but the better one is a trolling motor mount....

The biggest difference is going to be the cone size and how much of the water under the xducer that the cone will encompass...

The advertised spec 2d beam angles of the 3 separate xducers..

*XHS 9 HDSI 180 T     =  83kHz 60/200kHz 20
*XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T  =  83kHz 60/200kHz 20
*XNT 9 DI T                =455kHz 16/200kHz 25

The XNT 9 DI T was the original DI xducer for the DI units when they were introduced in late 2010...

Soon after the release of the DI units, users wanted a TM version puck...but they wanted the 83kHz 60/200kHz 20 beams that they were already used to with other HB TM versions ...

Thus, HB released the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T for the user's request...but with limited usability...

Only the larger DI units (800/900/1100) have the processing capability to also transmit at the 83kHz/200kHz frequencies...

Therefore, HB also released a software update for the 858/958/1158 DI units to add an additional 83kHz/200kHz selection under the Transducer Select menu....(the 859/959/1159 DI units came from the factory with this Transducer Select option)...

Rickie
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 01:43:58 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2014, 01:36:14 AM »
I did not know I could do that.  When I bought the 999 I just assumed that the DI was the same.  From the brief reading I did on the subject last night there appears to be several ways to connect a DI transducer.  Is there someplace I can see a diagram of these various options and a list of accessories required for each option?  I see the SWITCH but expect there is more to it than that.


http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=5388.0

http://www.crappie.com/crappie/side-down-imaging/256631-somebodys-experimenting/

Rickie

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2014, 01:57:35 AM »
Rickie, I noticed that the XNT 9 DI T uses 200/455 for 2d sonar. I also noticed that the 800 and up DI units use this transducer. How would this work on the SI units that use 200/83khz? I just find it odd that the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T is only available in the TM mount. Also, why wouldnt they have made it 200/455 like the XNT 9 DI T? Maybe the WIDE stands for 83khz? I am also assuming that the DI units have the transducer option of 200/455 and 200/83. Sorry man Im confused.


I answered most of this one in the previous post...

HB states that the XNT 9 DI T can be used on the SI units ...we already knew that...
(Here's the link again http://www.humminbird.com/Category/Support/FAQ/DIxducerSIunit/ )

In that verbiage on the HB website it states...in part...:

Your 2D readings will not be as good because the 2D element in the DI transducer is smaller; therefore, weaker than the 2D element in the SI transducer

So the XNT 9 DI T will work on the SI unit...
*The DI will be better...(simply because the DI piezo is pointing down...)
*The 2d will not be as good...(simply because 2d piezo is different)...

Therefore, the easiest setup (without limitations on the 2d)...is the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T ...(you just have to make the mount work for your application)....

Rickie


« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 02:03:16 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2014, 04:33:00 PM »
Thanks for all the support Rickie!

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2014, 12:47:31 AM »
There is another option to use the XNT 9 DI T and make the 2d work correctly also on the HB SI unit...using the AS SIDB Y cable ...

*Connect the XNT 9 DI T to the "Side Image" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable...
*Connect any HB xducer (except ONIX or ION) capable of 200kHz to the "Dual Beam" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable ...

This will give the same length DI piezo as the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T ...

And the AS SIDB Y cable will disconnect the 455kHz/200kHz 2d piezo from the XNT 9 DI T ...and instead get correct 2d readings from the additional 200kHz 2d xducer...

I like options...it makes experimenting interesting...

Rickie
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:48:44 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2014, 08:21:20 AM »
Yea man that's a good idea. In my case, I actually already have the splitter run. I get better on plane readings with the 2d ducer. As long as the 2d works ok, I would be happy. I mean if all of the x58/x59 units use it, the images can't be that bad can they?

On a side note, humminbird told me according to the FAQ section, that I can't use the DI ducer on my 798hdsi because it is not considered a high def unit since it doesn't use 800khz. It seems that even though it says it's ok on the FAQs, there is still some discrepancy with using it......

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2014, 10:29:22 PM »
Yea man that's a good idea. In my case, I actually already have the splitter run. I get better on plane readings with the 2d ducer. As long as the 2d works ok, I would be happy. I mean if all of the x58/x59 units use it, the images can't be that bad can they?

On a side note, humminbird told me according to the FAQ section, that I can't use the DI ducer on my 798hdsi because it is not considered a high def unit since it doesn't use 800khz. It seems that even though it says it's ok on the FAQs, there is still some discrepancy with using it......

I'm not sure why HB would have told you the 798 cannot use the DI xducer...(maybe Greg can elaborate when he checks in Monday)...

The DI xducer's "down pointing" DI piezo will vibrate at 455kHz or 800kHz ...
The 798 can transmit the 455kHz frequency...

Maybe HB just meant the 798 can't use the 800kHz (hi def) capability of the 455kHz/800kHz DI piezo in the DI xducer....

Rickie
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 10:30:40 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2014, 10:34:24 PM »
Well ...I went back and checked the HB FAQ again...and it does, indeed say...

If you own one of our high definition side imaging products you can use a down imaging transducer with it to improve your down imaging readings.  High definition side imaging products are only available in our 800 / 900 / 1100 / ONIX Series of products.

I still think the DI xducer would work on the 798...there just will not be an option to use the 800kHz (hi def) frequency of the DI piezo in the DI xducer...

Rickie



Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2014, 01:01:44 AM »
Yea Im not sure bud. All I know is that I called HB to see if they made a transom mount DI ducer with 200/83, and the rep told me that I couldnt use a DI ducer with an SI unit. Then I pointed him to the FAQ and he said the 798 is not considered an HIG DEF unit which is specified on the FAQ. He then told me hed call me back Monday because this was the first that he had heard of this concept (DI on SI unit). Im lost, I just was trying my luck to see if they made the exact ducer I wanted, didnt mean to stir the *%&# pot. Guess well see on Monday.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 01:02:49 AM by Rotus623 »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2014, 10:36:59 PM »
The CRC people are always told to err on the side of the exact verbiage available from HB's own specs and verbiage..(when the CRC person doesn't know the exact answer)...

This protects HB warranty issues being only dictated by the verbiage that HB dictates...(it keeps users from saying ...well this CRC person told me this)...yadayadayada....

I'm still surprised HB even put this in the FAQ at all...

When we were experimenting with these xducer setups...we tried every way in the world to get HB to publicly say a DI xducer on a SI unit would not void the warranty...with no success at the time...

1 of my contacts said this was even brought up at a morning meeting during the time...and everyone at the meeting looked at each other and said..."I'm not going to be the one signing off on this"

This is understandable..because at the time...there was no history of the "long term" effects of transmitting into an open channel with no piezo attached...
_______________________
Greg will check in Monday...he can tell us if the 798 can use the DI xducer...

And no...HB does not make a transom mount DI xducer capable of 83kHz/200kHz ...yet ...

Rickie

« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 10:47:15 PM by rnvinc »

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2014, 01:38:00 AM »
So if I understand you guys correctly the 2d piezo is smaller in the DI td?
 What's the best way to get good 2d images on a SI unit?
 Does one need to run a High Speed ducer with splitter "Y" and your SI ducer?
On a head unit mounted up front on TM is there a way to get both good 2d and DI images or do you have to pick one or the other?
 Is the US ducer in the Minnkota as good as a stand alone 2d ducer? 
Sorry for all the questions just trying to find the best way to get good 2d images.

To answer poster question, No I don't use my DI much because of poor images.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 01:40:01 AM by mike fish »

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2014, 03:39:38 AM »
The XDCR In the Minn Kota won't work for DI - read Rickies posts above concerning using another XDCR.
I can re-post some "DI" from SI images I put up on another site if so desired...

Offline Rotus623

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2014, 08:15:21 AM »
I can re-post some "DI" from SI images I put up on another site if so desired...

Sure Robert. Is it off of BBC?

Offline mike fish

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2014, 09:41:21 AM »
sfw1960 thanks, I know it can't do DI but was wondering how it's 83/200 compared to a HB 83/200 for quality.  Yeah if you want to post a link, I'd like to see some images.

What I meant is there a depthfinder or ducer that will do good DI and 2d? Ex; 859 HD, no DI or SI, give the best 2d images?

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2014, 10:10:57 AM »
Mike the DI units use 200 & 455 for 2D - so mixing in a 200/83 XDCR on a DI unit isn't easily possible if that helps.

Yes the shots were posted on BBC, but hosted on PB - I use it all the time.















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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2014, 02:03:31 PM »
Rickie I know of no reason why you could not use a DI model transducer on a 798 model unit but that is not anything official either.  I know that the transmitter/receiver circuitry between the 798 and larger Si model units is different, so that may be why.  Ive got a question in to someone who may be able to provide a more detailed answer for this.

FWIW: The XTM-9-WIDE-DI-20-T transducer can be installed inside-the-hull but the water temp shown would actually be from the inside of the hull of the boat.

The 2D piezo used in the US2 transducer differs from the 2D piezo used in the 200/83kHz transducers that we make.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

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Re: Does anyone even bother using DI on the SI units?
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2014, 05:51:16 PM »
Greg, thanks for chiming in. I talked to Matt with CRC today and he super-confirmed that it is all teams go with the DI ducer on these units. But yea itd be cool to figure out why the 798 was scratched from this capability. I still may try it.......


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