Author Topic: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?  (Read 106760 times)

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Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2013, 09:54:23 PM »
I have my Di transducer from my 597hd/Di  unit plugged into my 998c/si


Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2013, 09:57:48 PM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2013, 10:00:34 PM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2013, 10:13:42 PM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #154 on: June 27, 2013, 07:04:46 AM »
Richie, will this work?i want to use a hdsi  transducer  rotated  90░ to the left, using the humminbird y cable. attach  the xnt-9 di transduducer to get dept reading then use the ts3 switch to switch to another hdsi transduducer that horizontal  to the water.(ill kill the connection to the right side of the  hdsi transduducer that tilted 90░)

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #155 on: June 27, 2013, 10:43:58 AM »
Richie, will this work?i want to use a hdsi  transducer  rotated  90░ to the left, using the humminbird y cable. attach  the xnt-9 di transduducer to get dept reading then use the ts3 switch to switch to another hdsi transduducer that horizontal  to the water.(ill kill the connection to the right side of the  hdsi transduducer that tilted 90░)

The way I (most likely) will set mine up is ...

*60░ clockwise rotated HDSI xducer to "Side Scan" leg of AS SIDB Y cable
*XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T xducer to "Dual Beam" leg of AS SIDB Y cable
*Main connector of AS SIDB Y cable to the "switch thru leg" of the TS3 switch
*2nd HDSI xducer in normal orientation to the "line thru leg" of the TS3 switch

Is this basically the same as your question...??

I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??

Either SI element pointed down will work set up this way...

I chose the "right SI element pointed down" because of reports in the past that the "right SI crystal data" was more prevalent in the "DI from SI" DI views of the SI unit...

The SI unit does not change the internal "DI from SI" processing when this experimental xducer setup is used...

The unit is still processing the 2 sides (of the 2 SI crystals) into a DI image just as before...

The processor has no clue that the crystal is now pointing down instead of out to the side...

So the SI processor is still generating the DI view from a combination (composite blend) of the "right SI channel" (now in a crystal pointing down)...and the "left SI channel" (now in a crystal pointing up)...

This is why I think better images will be obtained by eliminating the crystal that is now pointing up...it's data is still being used by the processor to build the "DI from SI" image of the DI view...

Rickie

But now the
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 11:13:24 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #156 on: June 27, 2013, 04:35:26 PM »
Maybe Humminbird can add a transducer option that includes a "DI direct" mode which turns off the left side transducer and only processes the right side.
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #157 on: June 28, 2013, 03:50:26 AM »
Ll

Is this basically the same as your question...??

I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??

Rickie


[/quote]  thanks rickie. .The transducer  that im.  going to use has something wrong with the right side  .

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #158 on: June 28, 2013, 04:48:47 AM »
Ll

Is this basically the same as your question...??

I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??

Rickie


  thanks rickie. .The transducer  that im.  going to use has something wrong with the right side  .

Well that makes sense...then yes....using the left SI element pointing down will work...

Rickie

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #159 on: June 28, 2013, 02:52:56 PM »
Hey guys, I had another thought on this since you are experimenting.

Right now, doing the creative testing one side channel is open.  Is it possible the image would be even better if the other side was connected to a transducer?

What I am thinking is maybe with the HDSI transducer rotated at 60 degress, the dedicated DI transducer could be connected to the left (other) side.  That way the unit would be interpreting an image as the software intended with data from both sides.  The unit should ping both transducers as if it were a single HDSI........I know.....Now getting really complex.
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #160 on: June 28, 2013, 07:03:13 PM »
Hey guys, I had another thought on this since you are experimenting.

Right now, doing the creative testing one side channel is open.  Is it possible the image would be even better if the other side was connected to a transducer?

What I am thinking is maybe with the HDSI transducer rotated at 60 degress, the dedicated DI transducer could be connected to the left (other) side.  That way the unit would be interpreting an image as the software intended with data from both sides.  The unit should ping both transducers as if it were a single HDSI........I know.....Now getting really complex.

That's an interesting thought there Bob...

It would take some rewiring of the of a cable of some sort but I think it definitely could be done...

HMMM...think...think....think....I like thinking...:)

Rickie

Offline newkid4si

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #161 on: June 28, 2013, 08:50:28 PM »
I admire all the creativity and effort that is being put into this project.
I hope that when the desired outcome is reached, and it will be, HB uses this knowledge
and rewards you appropriately.

             Mike

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #162 on: June 29, 2013, 07:46:38 AM »
I admire all the creativity and effort that is being put into this project.
I hope that when the desired outcome is reached, and it will be, HB uses this knowledge
and rewards you appropriately.

             Mike

HB has been very good to me...

I owe Greg and Joby big time already....:)

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 07:47:41 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #163 on: June 29, 2013, 10:17:07 AM »
Hey Bob.  I think I got it now...in my head anyway...

Using the HB AS SILR Y cable I can ...:

*Rotate the right HDSI xducer clockwise 60░ to get the right piezo element pointing down..
*Rotate the left HDSI xducer counterclockwise 60░ to get the left piezo element pointing down...

*Hook the main connector of the AS SILR Y cable to the "SideImaging" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable...
*Hook the additional 83/200kHz HB xducer to the "Dual Beam" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable....

Using the AS SILR Y cable should allow the "opposing" SI element to already be disconnected in the wiring of the AS SILR Y cable...

Dang it Bob....now I have more experimental setups to try...lol

Gotta order the AS SILR Y cable....TODAY...!!

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 10:19:25 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #164 on: June 29, 2013, 07:55:25 PM »
Guys it's clear a lot of us are scrambling to enhance our DI on our SI units. This screams loudly to HB that they need to step it up on the DI part of these expensive units. Yes, I've heard that HB's approach was to offer the DI only units and I understand that, but when we take $2k and $3k SI units and convert them to DI units via transducer modifications, it's kinda like replacing your Cadillac's leather interior with cheap seat covers.
Until HB improves their DI technology the best approach today is simple(I know some will not like this but it's the facts)
Buy a Lowrance Elite 7 HDI for $545 and run it along side your bird SI. This is by far the best overall approach as of today. I've seen this set up firsthand and it's impressive.
Just stating what I've seen.

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2013, 07:23:50 AM »
Here's some  pictures using 997si transducer rotated 60░ counter clockwise using the left element

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2013, 07:25:08 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2013, 07:26:13 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2013, 07:27:36 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2013, 07:29:30 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2013, 07:30:55 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2013, 07:32:33 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2013, 07:55:07 AM »
I forgot to mention  that I've got the 997 transducer hooked to my 998 an also i used the wide Di setting.ill try medium and narrow later.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2013, 07:57:28 AM »
Thanks kosmo...

How do you think the shots compare between the DI xducer and the HDSI rotated 60░ ... ??

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2013, 02:08:54 PM »
From what I see what you're getting with your down imaging transducer rotated sideways, it is far superior than the dedicated down imaging transducer.
As a testimony to the superior SI technology that HB has. How are you mounting it on your boat? Can you show us ?

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2013, 02:39:19 PM »
From what I see what you're getting with your down imaging transducer rotated sideways, it is far superior than the dedicated down imaging transducer.
As a testimony to the superior SI technology that HB has. How are you mounting it on your boat? Can you show us ?

Uh...mine is a little ....un-conventional...to say the least...lol

Maybe kosmo will give us a pic of his setup with the HDSI xducer rotated 60░ ...as his configuration would be more apt to fit applications on a bass boat...

Rickie

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2013, 10:19:07 PM »
I think that Im getting better results from the tranducer  that tilted but i still need to test both more.Both options are a whole lot better than the stock tranducer mounted parallel  to the water.

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #177 on: June 30, 2013, 10:42:25 PM »
I have a three inch  aluminium  channel  just little longer than the strolling motor  housing .It has notches cut in it for the three tranducers that i now have

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2013, 07:50:22 AM »
kosmo...

You can test the HDSI rotated 60░ setup on the "Narrow" setting if the "DI Width" but you will only get a black screen on the DI view of the SI unit...(the "Narrow" setting on the DI xducer does not work either)..

Greg explains that this is because the "Narrow" setting is ..."what echo targets happen to be in both the left and right SI at the same time".... (Basically what targets happen to be the "overlap" of the 2 separate SI channels under the boat)...

So ...because the left SI has been disconnected...there is no way for any echo target to be common in the left SI and the right SI....therefore no DI image (in this "Narrow" setting)...

The "DI Width" settings of "Wide" and "Medium" both will provide a DI view in the SI unit...each will need different settings to garner an acceptable DI image....

I found the "Medium" setting as giving me more adjustability in the DI sensitivity setting...but your testing may vary ....try both the "Wide" and "Medium" DI Width settings...

Rickie
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:51:57 AM by rnvinc »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2013, 02:52:34 PM »
Ok.thanks rickie  .so far it seems to me that while using the wide setting in Di menu somewhere around 9,10,11  on sensitivity and anywhere from 6 to  12 on contrast works best.even in this picture i still didn't go past 11 on sensitivitity.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #180 on: July 01, 2013, 06:59:51 PM »
I agree with your observation that the "Wide" setting ran with lower DI sensitivity seemed to give better bottom detail...

But it also seemed to me that I could get fish and brush echoes to show better by running the "Medium" setting and then adjusting the DI sensitivity way up to 19 or 20...

Try the "Medium" setting on brush or stakebeds or other small detailed echoes up in the water column and see if you see the same results...

Rickie
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:02:28 PM by rnvinc »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #181 on: July 02, 2013, 02:38:15 PM »
here's a picture of my transducers  mounted on the trolling motor

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #182 on: July 04, 2013, 05:02:58 PM »
Today i tried the medium setting on Di.its like rickie  said you have to turn sensitivity  way up but does change the way the structure is shown on the screen.i personally didn't care for the medium setting. i think from what I've tested so far believe that if a person that running humminbird si units wants to get the most detail of small structure and get the best and brightest returns from fishes you can run the dedicated Di like Im doing  with the unit set to 800kHz on wide setting.i believe this method  gives 70 to 80 % better  detail than what i was getting using the standard transducer  running it  level.i can't wait to see rickies  lowbird  transducer  setup

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #183 on: July 05, 2013, 12:45:21 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2013, 12:46:59 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2013, 12:48:39 AM »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #186 on: July 05, 2013, 06:34:20 AM »
Today i tried the medium setting on Di.its like rickie  said you have to turn sensitivity  way up but does change the way the structure is shown on the screen.i personally didn't care for the medium setting. i think from what I've tested so far believe that if a person that running humminbird si units wants to get the most detail of small structure and get the best and brightest returns from fishes you can run the dedicated Di like Im doing  with the unit set to 800kHz on wide setting.i believe this method  gives 70 to 80 % better  detail than what i was getting using the standard transducer  running it  level.i can't wait to see rickies  lowbird  transducer  setup

I've had to work all week but hope to get back on the Lowbird DownImaging experiment today (Friday)...
 
I think abra is working on it also...I think his setup is deep water on a towfish but it will still be interesting....
 
Anyone else working toward testing the LSS 2 downscan element thru the right SI channel of a HB SI...??
 
Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #187 on: July 05, 2013, 06:32:09 PM »
I was able to get the LowBird downscan LSS 2 on my 1197c SI out today for some initial testing...
 
1st the easy conclusion...Hooking the temp from the LSS 2 up to the temperature channel of the HB SI does work...but inacurately .....as Rickard suggested it probably would....
 
My water temp at the lake today was 84░....the LSS 2 temp reading thru my 1197 showed 112.7░...
 
If I remember correctly...Greg made mention that the 1st test the unit does when first powered on is to "ding" the TEMP probe to see if there is a xducer attached...and if it detects the TEMP probe, then the unit starts in "Normal" operation......
 
The unit did indeed boot up into normal with no popup of  "No xducer" ..nor anything odd that I could tell..and the "System Status' screen showed the "Temperature" as "Connected"....
 
That being said...if the LSS 2 works out as a viable possibility...I will have to do some creative wiring to get a more accurate temperature reading....
 
Now for the image quality...I'm not happy yet....
 
I tested 6.310 and 6.640 on the LSS 2 "downscan element thru the HB SI right channel" ...
 
6.640 is still showing the jagged zigzagg jigsaw effect as has already been posted by me and others...so 6.640 in my 1197 using the LSS 2 downscan element is not even worth showing ...
 
6.310 is a little better but I'm seeing a "double image effect" with the LSS 2 downscan element that I don't recall seeing in either of the other experimental xducer tests I have completed up till now...
 
I tried slow and fast boat speeds....slow and fast chart speeds...DI width Wide and Medium...800 and 455...200only...200/83...83only...
 
I could get the structure to the width and height that I wanted to see...but nothing I tried would eliminate this "double image effect" in the DI image...
 

 
This "double image effect" is blurring the DI image so as to not being able to tell any type of image quality.
 
I will be testing with even older software versions to see if I can find a version that works with the LSS 2 downscan element...
 
I'm open for ideas on maybe what is causing this "double image effect"...
 
Rickie
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 06:36:53 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Rickard

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #188 on: July 06, 2013, 03:30:46 AM »
Rickie,
 
I think the double image you got can be caused by a "twin peaks" phenomenon. This means there is no mainlobe, but two strong sidelobes. This is the effect of combining elements with opposite pooling. But as I understand your wiring only the LSS-2 downscan array is connected? If the right SI array is active at the same time as the DI array, and if they happen to be connected with opposite pooling the main beam can be reduced and two strong sidelobes may appear. This is just a hypothesis and I have not simulated this particular case.
 
Does the SI view show the same double image as the DI view?
 
Rickard

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #189 on: July 06, 2013, 06:40:40 AM »
Thanks Rickard for the possiblity...but none of the other channels were connected in this experiment..

The "temp channel" and the "LSS 2 DownScan to HB right SI channel" are the only 2 channels that I have created for the DownScan trial testing...(83/200 2d is coming from Dual Beam thru the other leg of the AS SIDB Y cable)...

I did not see the "double image effect" in the right SI view...(I will zoom in on structure next time out in the right SI view to determine definitely if the "double image effect" is in the SI view also)...

I did also see the "double image effect" in the 6.640 software (barely)...but it wasn't as easily seen in the image because the "jagged zigzag effect" in the 6.640  is so bad anyway ...it's difficult to tell what was what in the image...

I'm still going to test this more before moving to the LSS 2 SI Lowbird project..I really want this DownScan element to work correctly...but I really can't think of anything else to try except changing software versions again...

I'm open for ideas...either in this testing or future possible scenarios/settings to try...

Rickie

« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:00:23 PM by rnvinc »

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #190 on: July 06, 2013, 09:24:41 AM »
It strikes me this could have to do with nearfield anomalies. The nearfield is about 15 feet at 800 kHz. At closer range than the nearfield limit the beam is full of ripples which can cause double images. This is the price for narrow beam at longer range. Have you tested your DI setup in deep water?
 
I looked through some close range images and could not find any double image tendencies in the SI views with the LSS-2. It seems to be unique to the DI channel or the image processing for that channel.
 
I would record and look at the SI and DI images with Humviewer. If there is no double image with Humviewer (or any viewer) the issue is isolated to the unit/processing. The unit display image is the result of alot of post processing of the raw sonar data. The recorded data are not affected by any post processing so these data tell more about the behavior of the transducer than the display snapshots do.
 
Rickard
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 11:57:20 AM by Rickard »

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #191 on: July 06, 2013, 12:49:53 PM »
Thanks Rickard ...

I will get some recording and test thru Humviewer as I have only captured screenshots from the unit itself in the 1 test trip...

I will also test is some deeper water for comparison ...

One other test I may try (just for grins and giggles)... Is to connect the LSS 2 right SI channel to the HB right SI channel and rotate the LSS 2 to point the right array down..

Can I assume the LSS 2 SI array angle is the same as the HDSI such that I would rotate the LSS 2 to 60░ similar to that HDSI rotated 60░ testing recently ... ??

Rickie
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:04:54 PM by rnvinc »

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #192 on: July 06, 2013, 01:05:49 PM »
Quote
Can I assume the LSS 2 SI array angle is the same as the HDSI such that I would rotate the LSS 2 to 60░ similar to that testing I done just recently ... ??

 
Yes, it looks as if the angle is the same. You could try estimating the angle from the images in this thread:
 
http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=5581.0
 
Rickard

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #193 on: July 09, 2013, 05:19:44 AM »
It's been way to hot to get on the water the last few days...

So I've been working on my xducer setup...

I have it now where I can easily rotate the HDSI or the LSS 2 for the 60░ rotation setup...

Now if it will just cool off a little where I can do some on the water testing..



Rickie

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #194 on: July 09, 2013, 04:26:50 PM »
Now that shows dedication to testing.......Only problem is you are out of room for the 360 transducer. ;D
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #195 on: July 10, 2013, 06:14:08 AM »
Greg...do you have a pinout diagram of the following?...:
 
*AS SW Y
*AS T Y
*TG W
 
Thanks
 
Rickie
 
 

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #196 on: July 11, 2013, 07:13:15 AM »
All I have is the attached.
I'm kind of tied up with some training stuff here so would not be able to get the other information to you in weeks possibly.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #197 on: July 11, 2013, 09:09:33 AM »
All I have is the attached.
I'm kind of tied up with some training stuff here so would not be able to get the other information to you in weeks possibly.


That pin out confirms what I needed to know Greg...thanks...

No need to find the others in the list...

You should slow down on that training stuff...fishing is way more fun...

Rickie

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #198 on: July 15, 2013, 10:28:18 AM »

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #199 on: July 15, 2013, 10:32:22 AM »


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