Author Topic: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?  (Read 104702 times)

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Offline MB.Pro.Guide

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2013, 10:49:38 AM »
Will do Rickie, on both counts. Thanks.

Won't be for awhile. Heading to a Tourney this weekend is a buddys boat! 


Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2013, 10:23:33 AM »
I have an 1198 and 998 at the console and 998 on bow all recently updated. If I want the absolute best DI possible at console, should I just attach a DI xducer to the 998? I'd leave the 1198 with the SI xducer of course. All 3 units are linked via HB hub.
By using a DI xducer on the 998, would I get the best image on DI? No problem using the 1198 for SI and the 998 for DI simultaneously.
I gotta get better DI images. Seeing too many "L" units out there with better DI than we get albeit they get worse SI.

Offline sjefsrafsern

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2013, 06:57:13 PM »
rf usually have tighter and narrow appearence on screen. did it rain or was waves when you took the images?  :)
if you are going to run di and si at the same time, youll have to use diffrent freq on both si/di and 2d to avoid interference between the units. but greg told me in a previous post that there could be some interference even if you do that.  :-\ but if youre going to try that, please post and tell us how it works out.  :)

stig

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2013, 07:42:30 PM »
I have an 1198 and 998 at the console and 998 on bow all recently updated. If I want the absolute best DI possible at console, should I just attach a DI xducer to the 998? I'd leave the 1198 with the SI xducer of course. All 3 units are linked via HB hub.
By using a DI xducer on the 998, would I get the best image on DI? No problem using the 1198 for SI and the 998 for DI simultaneously.
I gotta get better DI images. Seeing too many "L" units out there with better DI than we get albeit they get worse SI.

First...you need to understand that running a DI xducer on a HB SI unit is completely against HB warranty and you will probably lose your warranty by trying this ..

This idea of running the DI xducer on a SI unit was reported by a few bass fishermen willing to possibly sacrifice their unit and their warranty to experiment with this setup...

Now.. we have yet to hear of any detrimental effects of this setup...but this experiment is still just in its infant's stage without much reports to go on...

There are a few that are already experimenting with this setup and we are awaiting results from their tests....

(I just about have my setup installed where I can get on the water to test)...

Will this setup give better DI images....??  We just don't know yet ...
Will this setup harm the unit over time..??  We just don't know yet ....
Will this setup void your HB warranty...?? Absolutely...

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2013, 07:46:12 PM »
If I am unable to run dual xducers for 998 and 1198 for enhanced DI while still running SI then I will do what comes next. To sell my console 998 and run Lowrance HDS12 alongside my 1198 for SI.
HB DI is not on par and I'm doing everything I can to keep with one set of technology.
My best friend just installed an Elite HD DI bare bones no map alongside his 1198 and he's nailing it.
IMHO;
SI - Bird
2D- Bird with switch fire although both are pretty much equal
DI -  "L"
Customer Service -Bird

I've promoted Bird and have folks running them come to me to help with settings etc.
I've got too much in these 3 units not to have the best of both worlds.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #105 on: June 15, 2013, 07:57:39 PM »
If I am unable to run dual xducers for 998 and 1198 for enhanced DI while still running SI then I will do what comes next. To sell my console 998 and run Lowrance HDS12 alongside my 1198 for SI.
HB DI is not on par and I'm doing everything I can to keep with one set of technology.
My best friend just installed an Elite HD DI bare bones no map alongside his 1198 and he's nailing it.
IMHO;
SI - Bird
2D- Bird with switch fire although both are pretty much equal
DI -  "L"
Customer Service -Bird

I've promoted Bird and have folks running them come to me to help with settings etc.
I've got too much in these 3 units not to have the best of both worlds.

Running the DI xducer on your SI unit is completely your choice...(I just wanted to make sure you understand the possible consequences)...

Your decision of brand is also completely your choice...

It has never been secret that the "DI from SI" images in a HB SI unit can be inferior to the "Dedicated DI" images in Lowrance...(prior research should have easily shown that)...

Stayed tuned for future reports on this experimental setup of running a DI xducer on a SI unit...

I'm sure it will always be interesting...

And I'm also sure it will always be against HB warranty ...

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #106 on: June 15, 2013, 08:09:15 PM »
It boils down to what's important to the user. In the case of offshore freshwater "ledge" fishing we use DI a lot. I've had a lot of success with SI and we all know how good our Birds are especially since the recent updates.
It takes tribal knowledge to ascertain that HB is not a good as other brands for DI. I'd hope that HB is addressing this. I chose HB based on ease of use and customer service. The SI sold me and I "thought" the DI was going to be the same. It's not now that I've got 3 units on board.
No regrets. Just in search of the best out there to see those little fishes ;)

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #107 on: June 15, 2013, 08:42:26 PM »
HB did, indeed address the DI dilemma ...they just chose a different path for their niche in the industry...Dedicated DI units...(instead of the "dedicated DI crystal" in the SI xducer which gives great DI images at the sacrifice of longer SI range...)

All aspects of sonar technology are give and take...good at some things but not so good at others...or good at some things at the sacrifice of something other...

One just has to decide what they need in their preferred method of sonar use and then try to match the technology and/or brand (each with it's own advantages and disadvantages) that best accomplishes that need...

Rickie





« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 08:44:57 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2013, 03:47:55 PM »
I am very interested in the dedicated DI units.  I would like to see some images from people running the DI units......would especially like to see images from the Wide DI transducer that has 83/300 KHZ 2D.
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2013, 07:29:56 PM »
I am very interested in the dedicated DI units.  I would like to see some images from people running the DI units......would especially like to see images from the Wide DI transducer that has 83/300 KHZ 2D.

Although my unit is the 1197 and not a "dedicated DI" unit .... The XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T is the xducer I will be testing with my 1197 in this unique setup of running a DI xducer on a SI unit..

I decided if I was going to purchase a di xducer .... I wanted the one with the standard Dual Beam 83/200 2d ...instead of the stock XNT 9 DI T 200/455 2d...

I'm hoping to get it out to test this week...

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2013, 05:32:43 AM »
Rickie
Please post pics ASAP after you run the new setup with the DI transducer. I ordered a dedicated DI xducer and switch over the weekend to test on my 998.

Greg
Will HB bless this experimental approach? Do we lose warranty if we do this? Do you think there are any long-term issues re: harm to the SI units running DI xducers?

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #111 on: June 17, 2013, 10:29:07 AM »
Rickie
Please post pics ASAP after you run the new setup with the DI transducer. I ordered a dedicated DI xducer and switch over the weekend to test on my 998.

Greg
Will HB bless this experimental approach? Do we lose warranty if we do this? Do you think there are any long-term issues re: harm to the SI units running DI xducers?

I will definately post comparison pix as soon as I can...

I'll let Greg answer the blessing part (officially I doubt he can ...unofficially maybe) ...

As the dedicated DI xducer's is not designed to work with the SI unit...that's where the warranty discrepancy will be ...

Long term effects... No one has really tested the setup long enough to know... I would gues Brent Ehrler has been using the setup longer than anyone but he doesn't post here with us...Doug tried the setup and indicated he didn't see any advantage over the stock DI from SI setup...but Doug is not a DI guy anyway...

A few guys here have tried it ... But not enough to give reports yet...

I feel what we are going to find here is ... that the data coming from this setup will have a small advantage from the "DI from SI" setup solely because the beam in use (from the di xducer) will be pointed straight down and fanning out left and right equally from direct vertical....

Conversely, the beam from a SI xducer is pointed out to the side at an angle and fanning out from there...

So the echoes being targeted in the downward pointed beam should give better DI images than echoes being targeted in the outward-angled pointed beam...

We will see soon ...

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #112 on: June 17, 2013, 12:55:28 PM »
I received confirmation from HB corporate today that attaching the dedicated DI xducer to my SI units WILL NOT void warranties. Definitely good news.
New xducer, switch and mounts all shipped today.

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2013, 09:56:42 AM »
I cannot bless anything thing officially and I doubt that Humminbird would bless any sort of experimenting that their Engineering or Marketing folks do not do (they have all the fun…).
I have found out that there have been some that have been running this sort of configuration not long after we came out with the dedicated DI transducer (in the 2011 model year) and have not had a failure yet.  So they are either lucky or this will not harm the Si units.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2013, 04:54:41 PM »
So Steve...who did you talk to at HB that said it would not void the warranty ... ??

Rickie

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2013, 09:30:57 PM »
Actually the person I'm dealing with is a manager for both Humminbird and Minnkota. I'd rather not give his name out on the forum. He's been good enough to intervene based on some Minnkota Humminbird issues I've had and with success I might add.
I've sent videos from by 1198 to him so Humminbird engineering can review. We're trying to determine if my current settings have maxed out my capability with down imaging before the next step of installing a dedicated DI transducer.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2013, 09:45:02 AM »
Actually the person I'm dealing with is a manager for both Humminbird and Minnkota. I'd rather not give his name out on the forum. He's been good enough to intervene based on some Minnkota Humminbird issues I've had and with success I might add.
I've sent videos from by 1198 to him so Humminbird engineering can review. We're trying to determine if my current settings have maxed out my capability with down imaging before the next step of installing a dedicated DI transducer.

This is interesting....

Greg...can you clarify..one way or the other...??

I'm not saying you or the HB manager is not OK here...I just think some people wanting to try this have a lot to loose if something happens in the warranty shakedown....

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 12:41:15 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2013, 02:57:43 PM »
Legal stuff...yuk...lol

Let's move to more interesting stuff....snapshots...yay

Well...I'm not impressed...yet...but there is still a lot of testing to do as in any new setup or configuration....
 
 1st and foremost.....Let me say in earnest...(disclaimer coming)....
 
I, (in no way), suggest or condone you to try this on your SI unit...I made the decision completely (on my own) to risk my unit on an experimental xducer setup not intended to be used with the HB SI unit.....Your experimenting with this setup could potentially harm your unit and/or void your warranty....(as I have not seen an “official HB release statement” saying otherwise yet...)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Now....As there are a lot of screenshots to compare ...I'm going to split this into 4 separate posts...(maybe I can get them all 4 posted consecutively...)
 
1. Explanation of my testing the XNT 9 WIDE DI T on a HB side imaging unit...(in this post)...
 
2. Split screen Down imaging/Side imaging ---- Screenshots of HDSI xducer/DI xducer/HDSI xducer - right piezo element angled down ~25°
 
3. Full screen Down imaging  ---- Screen shots of HDSI xducer/DI xducer/HDSI xducer - right piezo element angled down ~25°
 
4. Observations/Comments/Stuff I can't explain
 
NOTE: these trials were NOT to obtain the best possible images..but to observe basic operational differences that can be expected at the defined settings...lots more testing will need to be done to experiment with water depth/water clarity/bottom composition/structure type/boat speed/chart speed/etc/settings to obtain the best images
 

 Settings/(and stuff) consistent across all screenshots...:
 

 *HB 1197c SI Combo
 *6.310 software
 *AS GRHA (not really important in this test)
 *No TS3 switch used – xducer(s) plugged directly into unit (to minimize connection issues)
 *Connect xducer/power on unit/Format NAV Directories/Restore Factory Defaults (with each xducer before scanning)
 *Beam Select – 200/83 (under Sonar tab)
 *Surface Clutter – 5 (under Sonar tab)
 *SwitchFire - Clear Mode (under Sonar tab)
 *Noise Filter - Off (under Sonar tab)
 *Max Depth - 100ft (under Sonar tab)
 *Water Type – Fresh (under Sonar tab)
 *Stop Tracking (under Nav tab)
 *SI Range – left and right - 55ft
 *SI Enhance – Contrast – 10
 *SI Enhance – Sharpness – Off
 *DI Enhance – Contrast – 10
 *DI Enhance -Sharpness – Off
 *DI Lower Range – Auto
 *Chart Speed - 2
*I tried (as much as possible) to run the exact same track in each pass at the exact same speed before capturing each screenshot to minimize variables...(I had several guys stop and ask me just what the heck I was doing..lol)
 

 Note also...I took the time to test Greg's suggestion of turning the stock XHS 9 HDSI 180 T xducer clockwise (at about a 25° angle...approximately one half of the advertised 55° right side beam angle) to point the right piezo element downward toward the lake bottom...I hooked this up with the AS SIDB Y cable to obtain the 2d thru the XNT 9 WIDE DI T ….to allow the unit to still get good bottom detection thru the 200kHz 2d beam of the DI xducer...... this turned out to be very interesting in the images obtained
 

 Rickie
 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 12:14:03 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2013, 02:59:18 PM »
 These split screen SI/DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 800kHz...
 

 
 

 These split screen SI/DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 455kHz...
 

 
 

 Rickie
 

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2013, 03:00:50 PM »
 These full screen DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 800kHz...(and basically the same history as the split screen SI/DI above ...because I changed “Views” and captured the full screen DI within 5 seconds of the split screen SI/DI above)...
 

 
 

 These full screen DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 455kHz...
 

 
 

 Rickie
 

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #120 on: June 19, 2013, 03:02:09 PM »
 Observations/Comments...with more to come I'm sure....
 

 I can definitely see potential in this setup of running a dedicated DI xducer on the SI unit....Mainly because the data is coming from a different beam angle crystal ...and more importantly....directed straight down instead of out to the side at an angle … like from the stock HDSI xducer....
 

 This is basically what Brent suggested in his video...it gives him a “different perspective” of the same structure under his boat...
 

 I found it very odd that the DI went completely black using the XNT 9 WIDE DI T when the “DI Width” setting (under the Sonar tab) was set to “Narrow”....I  adjusted the lower range in manual and ran the DI Sensitivity all the way up to 20 looking for the bottom and I could not get anything to show in the DI view in this setting on the DI xducer...800 or 455...weird...
 

 Now...I've got to get over some good brush on a harder bottom to experiment more...
 

 Rickie
 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 03:07:55 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Rickard

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #121 on: June 19, 2013, 03:43:40 PM »
Rickie,
Interesting testings. I think you should rotate the HDSI transducer more than 25 degrees, it should be 60 degrees. See the figure (cut and rotated from the patent file). A "DI from SI" downward image will be affected by a very disturbing opposite beam that points towards the surface, so that beam should be eliminated (cork, or just disconnecting the wire).
 
Rickard

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2013, 03:52:25 PM »
Thanks Rickard....

I was just guessing at what angle to rotate...your depiction helps a lot ...

And I agree...some cork or something on the left side will help eliminate errant reflections...(I suspect this may be why I saw some ghosting in this orientation..)

My initial thoughts at this point in testing is indicating that the HDSI xducer rotated is giving better DI images than the DI xducer on this setup...(like Greg memtioned...the element in the HDSI are longer than in the DI xducer)...

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 03:55:13 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2013, 04:24:34 PM »
Rickard...(or Greg)...(or anyone)

Beings as I'm using this rotated HDSI on the AS SIDB Y cable...can't I just remove the left SI pin in the "Side Image" leg of the Y cable to keep the left element from operating...??

Can you verify which pin in the xducer cable connector is the left SI ...??

Rickie

Offline Rickard

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2013, 06:08:33 PM »
It's the lowest pin in the transducer cable connector. I can't say if removing an SI channel is good for the unit in the long run, but it works temporarily and the unit won't protest.
 
A simpler solution would be using the SI view, selecting the the right beam only and tilt your head (or the whole unit), plus setting range to a little more than depth. But I think you may miss some DI options with this method.
 
Rickard
 

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2013, 06:26:34 PM »
My curiosity is piqued here...

The thread OP is discussing using a dedicated DI xducer on a SI unit...which, in effect, is removing a left SI element from the system to only send and receive data to the right SI channel...(which is the single dedicated DI element in the DI xducer)...

Wouldn't removing the left SI pin in my configuration of the "tilted HDSI xducer" be doing basically the same thing...?? (Eliminating the cable wire path for the left SI channel to travel thru)...??

So if using a dedicated DI xducer (with a non-existant left SI wire path) has no long term effects on the SI unit...then removing the left SI pin on the HDSI wire path should be the same potential non-damaging effect...??

Rickie



« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 06:29:20 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2013, 07:13:08 PM »
Rickie, Thanks for all the work you are putting into this testing.

It does appear that the HDSI transducer on it's side has some promise.

 In the DI wide setting the sensitivity of the dedicated DI transducer it appears that the sensitivity is greater, which seems to be a common characteristic of the dedicated DI transducers.  That may be what helps them make the fish show up much brighter.

It will be very interesting to see how they compare when scanning the brush, and especially how well fish show up in the brush.         
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2013, 07:46:22 PM »
Legal stuff...yuk...lol

Let's move to more interesting stuff....snapshots...yay

Well...I'm not impressed...yet...but there is still a lot of testing to do as in any new setup or configuration....
 
 1st and foremost.....Let me say in earnest...(disclaimer coming)....
 
I, (in no way), suggest or condone you to try this on your SI unit...I made the decision completely (on my own) to risk my unit on an experimental xducer setup not intended to be used with the HB SI unit.....Your experimenting with this setup could potentially harm your unit and/or void your warranty....(as I have not seen an “official HB release statement” saying otherwise yet...)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 



I don't see how Humminbird could void your warranty for using this setup when they are advertising it in their own press release.

http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660   
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline TroyBoy30

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2013, 04:37:00 AM »
most are finding only slightly improved images for this setup.  not worth all the trouble IMO

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2013, 05:56:30 AM »
Rickie, Thanks for all the work you are putting into this testing.
It does appear that the HDSI transducer on it's side has some promise.
In the DI wide setting the sensitivity of the dedicated DI transducer it appears that the sensitivity is greater, which seems to be a common characteristic of the dedicated DI transducers.  That may be what helps them make the fish show up much brighter.
It will be very interesting to see how they compare when scanning the brush, and especially how well fish show up in the brush.         

This is exactly why my testing involved changing as few of things as possible between testing the different setups...to eliminate variables to give more definite results of what to expect from each setup...
 
I will be redoing the "tilted HDSI xduer" snapshots as suggested by Rickard to tilt the HDSI xducer to ~60° ...over the same structure to find if there is improvement in the "tilted xducer" setup...
 
Rickie
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 06:09:25 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2013, 06:08:04 AM »
most are finding only slightly improved images for this setup.  not worth all the trouble IMO

Very true ....for some...

For others (like myself)...it's more of a challenge "tinkering" type thing ...

There are innovative ideas discussed here at sideimagingsoft that are just barely brought up on the other SI forums...(or not brought up at all)...

My OCD is very comfortable here....:)
 
Rickie
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 06:11:38 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2013, 09:01:12 AM »
Rickie,
You are correct about the transducer pin removal versus the DI transducer.  Either way and the left Si sonar is not connected.  However, before doing that to a $200+ transducer, why don’t you remove the same pin from a less expensive AS-Si-DB-Y cable instead?  It will still be the lowest pin in the connector as Rickard pointed out above.

Setting the DI Beam Width to Narrow basically tells the unit to only show what is common in both the left and right Si sonar, so on those transducers that only have right Si sonar returns… there should be nothing shown.

A request: I cannot get any of your images above to be shown large enough to see any detail.  When you post again, could you attach these as a file or some other way to allow for a more detail look at them?
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline Bob B

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2013, 09:55:42 AM »
Greg, I was able to download them to my computer and then view and zoom them with my photo viewer.
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Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2013, 01:05:22 PM »
Bob B, I finally got the pictures to download (was trying to “Save Target As…” instead of “Save Picture As…” Doh!) but the resolution was terrible.

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Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2013, 04:47:10 PM »
Rickie,
You are correct about the transducer pin removal versus the DI transducer.  Either way and the left Si sonar is not connected.  However, before doing that to a $200+ transducer, why don’t you remove the same pin from a less expensive AS-Si-DB-Y cable instead?  It will still be the lowest pin in the connector as Rickard pointed out above.

Setting the DI Beam Width to Narrow basically tells the unit to only show what is common in both the left and right Si sonar, so on those transducers that only have right Si sonar returns… there should be nothing shown.

A request: I cannot get any of your images above to be shown large enough to see any detail.  When you post again, could you attach these as a file or some other way to allow for a more detail look at them?


You must have been reading my mind...

I did, indeed, remove the left SI pin in my AS SIDB Y cable...(and you are also correct that I did not cry near as many tears modifying the Y cable as I would have if I had cut the pin out of my $200 HDSI xducer...:) )

Thanks for the clarification as to why the "Narrow" setting on the "DI Width" under the sonar tab shows nothing in the DI view in this unique setup....this makes sense....

Now explain the same "DI Width" terms as to why the "Wide" setting in the DI view is so much hotter (brighter) than the "Medium" setting in this setup...??

Do you still need some other type of pix format for me to post...??

(Note: I have lots more snapshots from today's testing with the HDSI angled at 60° like Rickard suggested but I have to compile them in some sort of OCD fashion before I can post them...)

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 04:54:34 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #135 on: June 21, 2013, 08:30:25 AM »
Rickie,
The Medium and Narrow setting for the DI Beam Width both filter the Si data in some way.  The Wide setting shows what both Si beams have without any filtering.  So the Wide setting should produce brighter (less filtered) sonar.  I would not look at it in anything but the Wide setting, especially since you are comparing it to a DI transducer.

Yeah, still cannot see any good detail in the images.  Would it bother you too much to post the *.png images with the next test series?

Greg Walters at Humminbird
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Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2013, 09:58:59 AM »
Rickie,
The Medium and Narrow setting for the DI Beam Width both filter the Si data in some way.  The Wide setting shows what both Si beams have without any filtering.  So the Wide setting should produce brighter (less filtered) sonar.  I would not look at it in anything but the Wide setting, especially since you are comparing it to a DI transducer.

Yeah, still cannot see any good detail in the images.  Would it bother you too much to post the *.png images with the next test series?



This is interesting about the "Wide" and "Narrow" setting the DI width with both the DI xducer setup and the HDSI xducer angled at 60°...
 
My latest testing (yesterday now) indicated that the "Wide" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) was so hot I had to turn down the DI Sensitivity down (in the DI Xpress window) to 1 or 0 to keep from blowing out the bottom with brightness...this, in turn, caused most any return echo in the water column (above the bottom in a DI view) to disappear or nearly disappear...
 
Conversely, with the "Medium" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) I was able to fully adjust the DI sensitivity (in the DI Xpress window) from 0 -20 to get the echoes in the water column (above the bottom in a DI view) to an acceptable level for good returns...
 
Now, of course, some of this may be caused by the specific enviromental criteria that was present where I was scanning....but...
 
The reason I mention this (with specific "in parenthesis" stuff above) is for those who are following the thread...and interested in trying either setup...
 
My testing so far indicates a couple of important points (with either the "DI xducer on a SI unit" .....or .....the HDSI xducer angled at 60° + Dual Beam xducer for 200kHz bottom detection for depth) ...
 
1. The "Narrow" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) will not work in either setup...as Greg has explained in a previous post...
 
2. Both the "Wide" and the "Medium" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) will operate with either xducer setup....each with different results in the DI image view....so try both settings to determine what works best with the enviromental conditions that are being scanned...
 
More to come....
 
I'm still compiling screenshots...I think we have a very workable DI replacement (maybe addition to the DI from SI) in the SI units....(with either xducer setup that I am testing).....
 
Note: I still adamately express to anyone ....that HB has yet to provide an "Official statement" saying specifically they will honor warranty with this experimental setup....
 
And we can't ask Greg to because he is not in the warranty claims department...(maybe we can get Steve to ask his contact in HB and MK to give us an "official release")
 
Rickie
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:19:43 AM by rnvinc »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2013, 03:30:57 PM »
In rickies experiments with the dedicated Di transducer did he do anything other than just just plug the Di transducer cable to the 1197.what about the open circuit  on the left side?

Offline Stevebrownfnr

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #138 on: June 24, 2013, 05:54:46 AM »
I Added  an XNT 9 DI T to my system late last week. I concur with Rickie's findings. I do not have pics to share as I was pretty busy preparing for a tournament. It did improve images, admittedly not as much as I would have hoped for, but I'm still tweaking settings. It did improve just not as much as I'd like, but better and hopefully with a few more settings adjustments will improve better still.
I did not install the TS3 switch. I utilized the network menu tab to switch back and forth between heads and transducers. I could visually  compare for example my 1198 with the SI transducer's DI images same time with my console 998's DI transducer images. The 998 images were better when it was networked utilizing XNT 9DI T. For what it's worth, I installed the DI transducer on my jack plate using a Transducer shield and saver L bracket. The installation was easy and a very secure install. Good product.

Warranty- I sent an email to my contact at HB asking him if HB would make a statement to the Forum here about not voiding warranties. A lot of folks are doing this and when you couple the fact that HB created a news release outlining Ehrler's set up, it's a no brainier that they should.

 Again, I was pleased to see improvement. Is it the best DI to be had? No. I've seen first hand a much better DI product but will reserve switching to that product for DI exclusive till I've exhausted all my units capabilities.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #139 on: June 24, 2013, 07:04:51 AM »
In rickies experiments with the dedicated Di transducer did he do anything other than just just plug the Di transducer cable to the 1197.what about the open circuit  on the left side?

Yes kosmo...just plug the DI xducer in as you would the HDSI xducer and leave the "Transducer Select"'menu to "HI DEF Sidescan...

The TS3 switch is just for convenience switching between the DI xducer and the stock HDSI xducer...

Now as far as the "open circuit" on the left SI channel causing damage ...maybe Greg will elaborate on that point for us...

Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #140 on: June 24, 2013, 07:33:04 AM »
I have so many screenshots in this testing it's difficult to find a way to group them in some fashion in the forum that is legible to keep up with what image goes with what settings..

At this point...I decided to compile a completely new comparison image instead of just “modifying” the one in post #118 above...(this will allow comparison of the HDSI xducer angled at 25° as in post #118 above... and ... the HDSI xducer angled at 60° in this post)...

Column 1 (of the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T) and column 2 (of the XNT 9 WIDE DI T) are the same images as in post #118 above.....column 3 replaces the 25° angled HDSI shots with the 60° angled HDSI shots...

NOTE #1 ...These new shots of the HDSI xducer at 60° were taken with the same consistent criteria/settings as the comparison shots in posts #118 & #119 above....

NOTE #2...I did not redo a complete comparison workup at the 455 frequency because the clutter in the image was so prevalent in the image it wasn't really worth my time....(I did capture a few images in the 455 frequency at different chart speed settings and I will post them in a coming separate post....

NOTE #3:....Coming separate posts of screenshots will also include the raw .PNG as attachments so they can be studied easier in the forum.....

This is the new workup with the HDSI angled at 60° compared to ….HDSI “DI from SI”... and the DI xducer...



Coming in separate posts will be individual PNG snapshots that are easier to examine in the forum...

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 10:16:02 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2013, 08:26:48 AM »
 This post is with the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged directly into unit (Transducer Select – HI-DEF Sidescan)

 800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed -1 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png 180


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 1 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png 183


 
800kHz / DI Width -Wide / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png 248


 
800kHz / DI Width Wide / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png 249


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.5 png252


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 5 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png255


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 5 / Boat Speed 2.7 png256


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png257


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 2.1 png258


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 2.1 png259


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png260


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 1.8 / Upper Range – 4 (this stretches image up) png261


 
455kHz / DI Width – Wide /Chart Speed – 1 png189


 
455kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 1 png 192

 
More to come...
Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #142 on: June 24, 2013, 08:38:00 AM »
 This post is shots with the XHX 9 HDSI 180 T rotated clockwise 60°...(plugged into “SideScan” leg of AS SIDB Y cable in addition to the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged into the “Dual Beam” leg of AS SIDB Y cable...I also removed the left SI pin in the AS SIDB Y cable main connector that plugs into the back of the head unit...)

 800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.5 png209


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png212


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / (Froze the screen and snapped pix of all the pallet colors of the same display image)
png232 Blue

 
png233 Amber 1

 
png234 Amber 2

 
png235 Brown

 
png236 Green

png231 Inverse

png237 Gray

png238 Green/Red


 
800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png225


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png218


 
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 4 / Boat Speed – 1.1 png228

 
More to come...
Rickie
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 09:31:10 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2013, 08:47:00 AM »
 This post is odds and ends shots ….but shots with the XHX 9 HDSI 180 T rotated clockwise 60°...(plugged into “SideScan” leg of AS SIDB Y cable in addition to the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged into the “Dual Beam” leg of AS SIDB Y cable...

 But I did not write down the settings other than what is showing in the screenshot itself....

 The known settings for the following shots are 800kHz / DI Width – Medium

 png242

 
png262

 
png263

 
png264

 
png267 stakebed

 
png268

 
png269

 
png270

 
png273


 
The known settings for the following shots are 455kHz / DI Width – Medium

 png241

 
png265

 
png266

 
Observations/Notes coming...
Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #144 on: June 24, 2013, 09:19:33 AM »
These are shots of the HDSI xducer in it's normal stock orientation and capturing the image with the compostite "DI from SI" ...(this is the same brushpile as in a lot of the shots above...I tried everything I knew to get the best images that the "DI from SI" could capture of this brushpile..even scanning off to the left of the brush a little to try and get the right SI beam to pick it up better)...
 
png274

png275

png276

png277

png278


 
Rickie
 
 
 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 10:23:26 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #145 on: June 24, 2013, 09:24:33 AM »
 A few points I noticed as consistent with both experimental DI setups...(in regards to effects on the displayed DI image)...
 
*Running the SI Width in the "Wide" setting ...I had to turn down the DI Sensitivity in the Xpress menu to nearly zero to get the image from being way too hot....this extremely low DI Sensitivity setting also made the "weaker" returns to disappear (or nearly disappear) in the DI image ... Not good...
 
*Running the DI Width in the "Medium" setting...I had full range of DI Sensitivity in the Xpress menu to adjust the image brightness to what I liked best....and this was usually closer to 19-20....I think there is a distinct advantage to this because the higher DI Sensitivity setting also allowed the "weaker" returns to start popping out in the image also...I like this...:)

 *In addition to being “crisper”, the 800kHz seems to have a “cleaner” dark background in the displayed DI image... (lots of clutter in the dark background when set to 455kHz)...

 *Faster Chart Speed makes structure/fish show wider...(stretching the echo pixel plotting horizontally on the screen or maybe replotting the same echo pixels repeatedly, I'm not sure which)...

 *Faster boat speed seems to degrade the clarity/strength/brightness of the individual echo returns being displayed in the DI image...(maybe spacing the pings out further across the xducer's track thru the water ... )

 *Setting DI “Lower Range” in “Manual” to 1-2ft below the bottom allows the actual structure/fish to show larger...(Auto keeps bottom in the center of the DI image at some water depths making the structure look smaller).....

 *Setting DI “Upper Range” in “Manual” to eliminate some of the upper water column in the image allows the actual structure/fish to show larger...(stretching the echo pixel plotting vertically on the screen)...

 *Setting the 2d Sonar setting to 200kHz increases Chart Speed ...(this may just be my software version)...I need to test this more ... as it seems that DI needs a faster chart speed anyway than what we are used to using for SI scanning....so the 200kHz may actually help the images....we will see...

 *Pallette color choice makes a big difference in strength/brightness of the echo returns...(we know this even from regular SI scanning...certain colors look better under certain conditions....I like Blue, Brown or Inverse myself but green seemed brighter and more defined in these tests)...
 
My personal opinion ...we will never obtain the "crisp" detail that some "Dedicated DI" units can obtain...the data is just not processed the same....
 
I do think either of these setups will allow me to get stronger/brighter echo returns of structure/fish/bait in the dark water column (above the bottom in the DI view)...than using the stock HDSI xducer capturing the "DI from SI" data...
 
And I feel this is mainly due to the DI beam shooting down and fanning out from there...instead of the stock HDSI shooting out to the sides and processing the SI data into a composite DI image....

I also feel that the HDSI xducer rotated clockwise 60° gives "slightly" better detail than DI xducer...as Greg explained the piezo element is longer so it has a "thinner" beam ...which leads to more detail in the image ...
 
I just gotta figure out how I'm going to get all these xducers on da'ducer apparatus®...
 
Rickie
 
Oh..and my favorite shot is png267 of the stakebed...I'm going vertical jiggin now that I have a tool that actually works for this...
 
Rickie
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 09:47:38 PM by rnvinc »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #146 on: June 24, 2013, 11:22:50 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2013, 11:23:50 AM »

Offline kosmo

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2013, 11:27:17 AM »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Ehrler's use of XNT-9-DI-T transducer with 1198?
« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2013, 08:49:08 PM »
Kosmo...

Are your shots "DI from SI" or from the DI xducer plugged into 1 of your SI units ... ??

That 3rd shot is saaawweeeetttt....:)

Rickie
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 09:51:47 PM by rnvinc »


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