Topic: My Old Humminbird 798CIHDSI Blows Away My New Helix 7 CHIRP MEGA SI GPS G3, Why?

[cat_in_the_hat]

After my trusty 798CIHDSI failed to power up this spring, I decided to avail myself of the latest technology and bought the newly released 3rd generation Helix 7 CHIRP MEGA SI GPS G3. I studied the manual and watched innumerable YouTube videos. Last week I made two boat trips to practice with the Helix before fishing season got going. I used a trolling motor mount  XTM 9 HW MSI 150 T transducer.

I began to be concerned that I was not seeing much fish echo sign despite cruising around both lakes for the that express purpose. I recorded both trips and later at home spent hours reviewing them looking for good results but was confused how both lakes could be nearly devoid of fish.

This is the best Helix 7 Side Imaging picture in over four hours of recording in both Crystal and Lower Bolton lakes last week. Some scattered echoes found here and there at Crystal, at Bolton saw maybe four echoes in two hours. I had the settings generally default which matched YouTube recommendations. I sat for hours on the couch playing and replaying the recordings looking for the best shots. Below is Lower Bolton Lake where you can see my track as I was not fishing but simply hunting fish echoes. I am not even sure those two SI echoes to the left are fish:

http://ptandjb.com/Humminbird/S00027.PNG

This is the best Helix 7 2D Sonar Mega imaging picture in over four hours of recording in both Crystal and Lower Bolton lakes. We barely see the arcs of what are probably newly dumped hatchery truck trout that were released at the Crystal Lake landing 100 yards away the day before. Side imaging completely devoid of fish echoes:

http://ptandjb.com/Humminbird/S00029.PNG

Around this time I tried to power up the 798 for the umpteenth time and to my amazement it powered up. However no button worked except for the power button. This was similar to a previous trouble previously fixed. Dissassembled the 798, blew it out thoroughly with canned air, reassembled it and everything worked again.

Loaded Helix recordings into the 798, no improvement in the Helix views. Loaded a typical 798 Shenipsit Lake trip in 2017 (equipped with XTM 9 SI 180 T Compact Side Imaging 83/200 kHz transducer) recording into the Helix for comparison purposes. The imagery was simply spectacular. Here I was chasing a school of 9.5"-11" white perch. Compare the distinctive 2D sonar, down imaging, and side imaging fish echoes with the Helix imagery above. The first two pictures below are different views of the same point of the recording. Note how robust the fish echoes are:

http://ptandjb.com/Humminbird/S00031.PNG


http://ptandjb.com/Humminbird/S00033.PNG

This image includes the chart view showing my meandering track chasing after the perch:

http://ptandjb.com/Humminbird/S00034.PNG

In conclusion, this brand spanking new 3rd generation Helix as currently configured cannot find a fish in a barrel in comparison to the ancient 798. The Helix has spectacular Mega Imaging views of the bottom and all the debris there, which would be great if I was a salvager, but it is fish I am after. If I calculate correctly, the Helix Mega Imaging G3 is the 4th Humminbird generation after the 798. I expected a major quality improvement, not the spectacularly poor results.

I am hoping against hope that I am either making some serious operational error or the Helix is in some way defective. The joy of resurrecting the 798 from the grave is more than offset by the approximate $1000 hole in my pocket for the Helix, extended warrantee and extra transducer. I am looking for any advice or assistance. I plan further on on the water experimental recordings of the same targets with each unit and transducer independently to see if I confirm my preliminary results or more hopefully find out what I am doing wrong.

[ezfishn]

What version software were you using on the new unit?

[cat_in_the_hat]

Software Update - HELIX 7 CHIRP MEGA SI GPS G3 v. 1.940 installed as soon as unit unpacked two weeks ago

[rnvinc]

You're not the 1st user I've read that mention the new units show structure well  ... But fish not so much  ...

I still think my 1197 has better SI than my ONIX  ... but that's just my opinion  ...

Rickie

[cat_in_the_hat]

Update #1:

I am have not learned anything solid to explain the apparent difference between the Helix 7 and the 798. I have gotten some comments in various forums and from various individuals indicating that the newer Humminbird units stress structure over fish visibility or that they do not see fish as well as older units. But I have not seen any solid information on the subject. I have received no response from Humminbird to my detailed email technical support request on the subject.

I am preparing for a controlled study comparing performance of the HELIX 7 CHIRP MEGA SI GPS G3 with the 798CIHDSI. My credentials for conducting such a study are that I have a BSEE from the University of Connecticut and a Professional Engineer PE license from the state of Connecticut, both of which give me the background to thoroughly and competently understand all technical aspects of the units and their operation. In addition, I am a formally trained Six Sigma Black Belt which provide me the tools and expertise to design, conduct, and analyze the results of a controlled study. My experimental protocols, results, analysis, and conclusions will be published in various venues.

Settings on both units will be set to maximize fish echo returns, tentatively planning three types of field runs against the same targets. First run, the Helix with its trolling motor mount XTM 9 HW MSI 150 T transducer. Second run with the 798 with its trolling motor XTM 9 SI 180 T Compact Side Imaging 83/200 kHz transducer. Third run the Helix 7 with the 798’s XTM 9 SI 180 transducer which the Helix is configured to use by menu setup choice.

I wish to talk with and have a technical relationship with a Humminbird technical expert to understand the differences between their newer and older technologies, something probably above the capability of most phone technical support personnel. I realize the possible impact to Humminbird if results show that newer units are substantially inferior to older units in identifying fish echoes, I want to be careful not to make any mistakes.

I would appreciate any information to assist in my understanding, personal experiences or people I can talk to.

[rnvinc]

Please understand this forum is privately owned and not associated with HB in any way  ... Nor monitored by any HB employees  ... (Altho a HB employee does occasionally post here)  ...

I envy your diligence  ... (even tho I doubt HB is going to share proprietary information)  ...

Please don't let that deter your experiments  ... Qualitative results are interesting and topics for robust discussion  ...

Rickie 

[cat_in_the_hat]

I just received a message requesting more information, so here is an update. I went so far as to hunt down and purchase a used 798ciHDsi on eBay because Humminbird refused to repair my first 798ciHDsi saying no longer any parts. Then, surprise,surprise the  9-15-2021 Software Update - HELIX 7 CHIRP MEGA SI GPS G3 v. 2.660 when installed fixed the issue. Nice solid fish echos, same as the old 798ciHDsi No mention of this re-tuning the software in the description to see solid fish echoes like the old Humminbirds, but I suspect a chorus of complaints made the suits at Humminbird quietly fix the issue. So finally a lesser stress on identifying structure and more on finding fish. So no need for me to perform and publish a rigorous study to force Humminbird to address the issue now that they have done so.

[Mark Saikaley]

I was going to reply that Ive gone from 998SI to Helix 10 Chirp Mega SI  G2 to Helix 12 Mega SI 4G and noticed significant gains in the Side and Down imaging.. In regard to marking  less fish in the Helix compared to the 998 in 2D mode, I found I had to select the med/wide transducer beam option in the Helix to get the same numbers of targets. Seemed that the Helix defaults chose a higher frequency but narrower beam width by default. Got higher resolution but no fish with the defaults. Rickie had put me on to changing the beam width selections. I dont have my Helix 12 installed on any boat right now (sold the boat and still deciding on a new one) so cant confirm which version of SW was on it, but the unit was new spring 2021 and updated when I installed it. I just know that SI was always noticeably improved with each new HB and also with each increase in screen size. I couldnt imagine trying to use a 7 inch screen on a regular boat especially with split screens

[Swann]

Hey "master" Rickie, if an 1197 is CCFL & one was 2 assume an ONIX 2be an LED display - In what manner is it exactly that U would "feel" an 1197 might yield better SI images? especially when an 1197 is 600x800 pixels and an Onix10 is 768x1024 ? Could U PLS explain the scenario(s) that caused U 2make mention of this possibility?
Thanks, Sandro (aka Swann)

[rnvinc]

Hey "master" Rickie, if an 1197 is CCFL & one was 2 assume an ONIX 2be an LED display - In what manner is it exactly that U would "feel" an 1197 might yield better SI images? especially when an 1197 is 600x800 pixels and an Onix10 is 768x1024 ? Could U PLS explain the scenario(s) that caused U 2make mention of this possibility?
Thanks, Sandro (aka Swann)

Although I don’t really have any way of measuring SI image detail, it “seems” to me thru the advancement of SI thru the years that Humminbird has more and more leaned toward improving structure detail over fish detail in their SI technology  ...

I would assume that it’s a challenging balance to get great soft target detail (fish) in the same SI image as harder target detail (structure)  ...

I still wasn’t satisfied with SOLIX after ONIX  ... so now I’m soon to order APEX in hopes that the full HD screen will find that balance of soft and hard target detail in the same SI image  ...

Rickie

[Swann]

When it comes to 2D Sonar for "Fish Finding", Ive been hunting that old Quad Beam 4quite some time & feel fortunate 2have picked 1up just recently But now therez 1 little problem ; I don't own anymore Core Units b/c I sold them off here & there & yet of all the Units that have passed thru my hands (1198, 998,1199, 999 & my trusty 598 Custom All-Season Back-Up Unit just sold recently), I miss my 1198c_SI the most... Just loved that "Sonar Ping Sound" it would make at startup - LoL !
So Now I'm looking 2wards an Onix10ci_SI or Helix10_SI (Gen1) & Yes, I know - I'm a Cheap 2nd Hand Kinda Guy But Itz Not like my last name is VanDamme-ya? Not 2 mention that He Won plenty of Tournys using HB Core Series Gear. Regardless, my question is as follows:
Would Either The Helix10_SI (Gen1) or The Onix10ci_SI (be it C.T or N.T) be capable of The Quad Beam Function? I know either will Utilize the 83/200khz Dual Beam (need an adaptor 4the Onix Connection) BUT would either of these Units be "Quad Beam Capable"?
Thanks, Swann

[rnvinc]

When it comes to 2D Sonar for "Fish Finding", Ive been hunting that old Quad Beam 4quite some time & feel fortunate 2have picked 1up just recently But now therez 1 little problem ; I don't own anymore Core Units b/c I sold them off here & there & yet of all the Units that have passed thru my hands (1198, 998,1199, 999 & my trusty 598 Custom All-Season Back-Up Unit just sold recently), I miss my 1198c_SI the most... Just loved that "Sonar Ping Sound" it would make at startup - LoL !
So Now I'm looking 2wards an Onix10ci_SI or Helix10_SI (Gen1) & Yes, I know - I'm a Cheap 2nd Hand Kinda Guy But Itz Not like my last name is VanDamme-ya? Not 2 mention that He Won plenty of Tournys using HB Core Series Gear. Regardless, my question is as follows:
Would Either The Helix10_SI (Gen1) or The Onix10ci_SI (be it C.T or N.T) be capable of The Quad Beam Function? I know either will Utilize the 83/200khz Dual Beam (need an adaptor 4the Onix Connection) BUT would either of these Units be "Quad Beam Capable"?
Thanks, Swann

While ONIX has the capability to set each piezo independently - it doesn’t have the software to render that data into a Quadrabeam image  ...

HELIX G1 might have still has software for Quadrabeam  ...

Maybe someone with a HELIX G1 can check in the “Connected Transducer” Menu under the Sonar tab to verify  ...

Rickie

[Swann]

Perhaps I should post that last paragraph as a New Topic in the hopes some1 w/a Helix9 or 10_SI (Gen1) might catch wind of my query?... And NO "Master" Rickie, as much as I respect U like a Sensai of Sonar Technology - PLS Don't be getting Ur Hopes Up that IF I'm unable 2find a suitable match that I will ship the Quad Beam Ur Way just so U can Cut it in Half 4the purpose of Technical Autopsy... She Still works which means She's still alive - so NO Autopsy yet - ok? LMAO Thank U Sir ! Ur Loyal Fan, Swann.

[rnvinc]

Perhaps I should post that last paragraph as a New Topic in the hopes some1 w/a Helix9 or 10_SI (Gen1) might catch wind of my query?... And NO "Master" Rickie, as much as I respect U like a Sensai of Sonar Technology - PLS Don't be getting Ur Hopes Up that IF I'm unable 2find a suitable match that I will ship the Quad Beam Ur Way just so U can Cut it in Half 4the purpose of Technical Autopsy... She Still works which means She's still alive - so NO Autopsy yet - ok? LMAO Thank U Sir ! Ur Loyal Fan, Swann.

Lol  ... I have an old Quadrabeam but I doubt I’m dissecting it  ...

Rickie

[Mark Saikaley]

Please understand this forum is privately owned and not associated with HB in any way  ... Nor monitored by any HB employees  ... (Altho a HB employee does occasionally post here)  ...

I envy your diligence  ... (even tho I doubt HB is going to share proprietary information)  ...

Please don't let that deter your experiments  ... Qualitative results are interesting and topics for robust discussion  ...

Rickie 

I went from 997 SI -> Helix 10  CHIRP SI G2n  Helix 12 Mega SI g4n.  I have had noticeable improvements in the Side and down imagiing with each new system progressivley.  I did find that when I went from the 997 to tht Helix 10 CHIP that I was marking much less fish and I had both units insytalled on the boat so was able to reproduce this at will in exact locations.  However SI and DI was much better on the Helix 10.  In regard to the standard sonar, I found that when I switched my sonar settings to as close to possible as the 997, ie I turned of CHIRP and selected the same 2D beams that I got pretty much the same markings on the helix 10 and 798, so it seemed that is was whatever limitations with CHIRP that was causing the difference and I suspected cone angle. ie with the CHIRP I was just not covering nearly the same area in the signal but I dont know wjay. It was just frustrating that the CHIRP was so highly promoted yet, it was seemingly a useless setting. I also found that with the Helix 10 g2n AND my Helix 12 G4n that my depth is easily confused by bait balls , weeds or even retrieval of prawn traps and I will get alarmingly low depths when in Much much deeper water and its slow to correct. I found the 997 SI showed the bottom hard structure well but didnt show anything else. Wasnt good at showing an aread that had a lot of submerged tree trunks (standing tall) which had been cut prior to hydro flooding. Only appeared slightly when sensitivity was set to max. Could see logs laying on the bottoms but not vertically, so anything soft was not detected especially fish.  On the Mega image g4n (which has a different transducer than what my g2n came with ) I see high detail in bait balls and see fish and the general shape. I have not had a lot of hours with the G4N as I spent the last year boatless but this is the first unit Ive had where I felt the Side and down imaging was approaching what I had hoped for. My only complaint about the system is the erros in finding bottom .

p.s. I find Im marking lots of fish arches in the G4N with the default 2d sonar settings and changing only the sensitivity depending on conditions and it aligns well with what Im seeing on side and DI wiuth the exception that the 2d is marking more fish than the Mega Images, bait balls are almost always seen on all beams. So whatever the issue was with the g2n helix 2d missing most of the fish seems to have been resolved in the G4N either with the unit or the xducer

[Swann]

Thank U Mark, although at 1st it may have "seemed" that comparing a 997 (8in CCFL) 2a Helix 10_SI (HD LED) as a bit of an unfair comparison. Your thorough comparisons throughout the write-up was just great as the dots began 2connect & how "settings" can really mean alot No Matter what Unit/Model# a person is using where even the "almighty" Chirp Technology is subject to User input.
Thanks Again, Swann