Author Topic: Worst Month of My Life (Read 15431 times)

Missoura Bushwacker · « **on:** September 22, 2011, 03:40:08 PM »

Long time reader first time poster. I am praying you guys can help. I have been working with several other people on a couple of different forums for about a month now trying to trouble shoot my 798 hdsi. I have about $1300 invested in a single 798 head unit with separate transducers at the TM and the transom/console. I am begging for a solution to several different issues. I am ready to give up on Humminbird if something does not give. It should not be this difficult.

1. I have the transom mounted ducer installed per directions with no obstructions in the way. When traveling at low speeds (UP to 3 mph) I always get a "white cloud" in the top 3 feet of the left side column and most times I lose some the outer image of the right edge. This cloud and missing gets bigger and occurs on both sides of the column at speeds above 3 mph and the whole screen goes static. This happens regardless of whether the TM or the engine propels the boats See pics.
Low speed

Shield placement. I have since even removed the livewell screen just in case

High Speed creates static

I put the ducer on a stick deeper in the water and saw this at low speed.COuld not keep it steady at high speed.

I put the whole system on separate shielded wires and on separate dedicated batteries away from all other electrical sources thing bad grounds or interference/noise was causing the problem but it still does it. Notice in the pic below how you can see where I back on and off the throttle to make the screen static in and out and white clouds get big and little. IT affects the Di and @D as well.

2. The list of similar problems I am having at the TM are too numerous to mention. I will address them if and when I can address the issues above.

3. I borrowed another 798 that works and tested on my system but same probs occurred. We noticed that when running my 798 on transom and borrowed one on TM caused repeating patterns of alternating black and white lines on both screens which went away when one is turned off. CRAZY

Please help. I have tried it all but maybe some one can help. I have a 20 foot express hd aluminum boat.

sonar2000 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:49:17 PM »

From the initial look it appears as water turbulence.. Water with air does not help sonar frequencies. Look for some air induced turbulence around the transducer..
chuck

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:51:37 PM »

MB,
I never asked you this before but does this same thing happen (the horizontal lines in the Si sonar) if you kick the motor out of gear and rev the motor?

3. Run two sonar units on the same boat at the same time that also use the same frequency and you can get sonar-to-sonar interference. What this test did show was that the problem is in the installation or is on your boat and is not the unit.

I believe that you also tried another transducer on your boat in the same location, correct?

sonar2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »

This does not look like sonar induced interference. He has too good of display in other areas. I think he should concentrate on the turbulence issue. Especiasly since this is a surface issue..in the center water column...
chuck

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #4 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:08:02 PM »

Look at the last part of what he stated in #3 Chuck: “We noticed that when running my 798 on transom and borrowed one on TM caused repeating patterns of alternating black and white lines on both screens which went away when one is turned off.”. That is classical sonar interference which I agree has nothing to do with what his original problem.

George · « **Reply #5 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:40:51 PM »

I am probably wrong, but it appears that the transducer is high up on the transom, would this cause heavy turbulence directly under the transducer?

Usually the transducer is just a little below the bottom of the hull.

I believe it is a common practice to install the transducer on the jackplate.

George

sonar2000 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 22, 2011, 06:51:53 PM »

I see what he posted. I am commenting on the white clouds he was concerned about. That is a classic example of turbulence and not interference.
Yes indeed George. The higher towards the top of the water the better chance for the air to get under the transducer....
Chuck

Roddy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 22, 2011, 07:31:33 PM »

Bushwacker,

1. The xducer is mounted on the jack plate. This is 4 to 8 inch aft of the teansome and too close to the motor. Xducer should mounted no closer than 15 inch to motor. Where it is in the pix prop wash at low speed is the white cloud, At higer speed water passing under the hull may not contact the xducer = no system reading.

2. Move xducer fron the jack plate to the hull at lest 15 inch from the motor amd install as per HB inst sheet.

I bet it will work then!!!! Roddy

RGecy · « **Reply #8 on:** September 22, 2011, 08:09:00 PM »

MB,

The white cloud effect is turbulence and air bubbles coming off the hull. You need to mount the transdcuer down on the transom and get it below the turbid water. Also needs to be about 15-18" off the center line to keep from causing cavitation in the prop.

I know it makes the transdcuer more vunerable to stumps and things, but this is what it takes to get the best results o a hull like yours.

Good Luck,

Robert

ITGEEK · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2011, 08:27:15 AM »

I totally agree with Roddy.
Not only is the transducer too close to the prop (will get aerated water),
it's also mounted in such a way that it will receive
bounced signals from inside the jack plate/tilt and trim unit.
Who knows what kind of signal bouncing will go on inside that metal box.

Also, it's hard to tell from the angle of the picture, but it looks
like the right side-imaging beam will catch the bottom of the
plate.

This is a very unusual looking transducer install.
This is not per Humminbird transducer installation instructions.

Missoura Bushwacker:
I'd mount the transducer on the right bottom of transom as low and as far right as possible.
Just high enough so that the left side-imaging beam doesn't catch that screen thing of
a magiggy. Also, make sure the trailer bunks won't hit it. Look at your Humminbird manual
for transducer installation. Make sure you have a clear line of sight of the transducer to the
right and left in order for the side-imaging to work correctly.

I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but the left-most trailer bunk is already hitting that
screen thing of a magiggy.

One you move the transducer, it will be one of the best days of your life.

Good Luck

Missoura Bushwacker · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:29:44 AM »

Gentlemen- Thanks for the timely responses. I really appreciate the input b/c it has been a real tough go so far with this but I think it is turning the corner. The white cloud issue at low speeds just cannot be turbulence because it is the same shape and size even when the boat is not moving or even when going in reverse. It is there when the prop is out the water and the boat is propelled by the TM. It must be "pinging" off the jackplate or picking up the livewell screens. I am working with Scap from Transducer Shield again to look into spacers that will lower it away from the jackplate a little more and away from the transom a bit more and see if this does it. I am confused why some consider this an unusual set up. Using a jackplate mounted Transducer Shield is the most common and bullet proof way I have seen on the internet. Last option would be to ask HB to swap out my ducer for a thru hull and just be real careful when loading the boat.

The other problem is more concerning and it relates to "noise/interference" related to the engine. My screen completely statics out when the engine is reved in neutral or when the throttle is applied above idle. I have completely isolated the transducer wire a foot or more away from anything electrical. I have ran all power wires completely separate from all other wires in shielded data wire to a complete separate battery. And the results can be seen in the last pic above. I plan to mess with the noise filter option this weekend to see if that helps. Then switch to new resistor spark plugs and then install alternator filter. If that don;t work then I guess thjsi will be the third thing I guess I will have to live with unless you guys can some more options. I am willing to try anything to salvage this huge investment in time and money.

As far as having to live with the crosstalk lines when using two units. I think that really stinks. Is there not away to give them different frequencies. HB's whole marketing campaign is based upon interlinking/sharing but when you do you have to live with interfernece. I must be missing something here.

ITGEEK · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2011, 03:09:40 PM »

Bushwacker,
I have not seen a transducer installation like yours before, even though you say they are common. It seems to me that you are set on keeping your transducer on your jack plate.
You did ask for opinions, so here's mine:
I think you are in for lots of heart-ache, expense, and wasted time if you keep your
transducer on your jack plate. You'll be cussing Humminbird, and your installer because
you won't be satisfied with the results.
To be honest, I think your transducer is mounted in one of the worst places possible.

It's close to your engine prop.
When your prop spins, it's going to aerate the water around your transducer.
Air bubbles and sonars don't go good together.
Also, that transducer is sending out beams out both sides and straight down.
You are going to have all kinds of signals coming back and bouncing all around the inside
sides and inside top of your jack plate.

This is also not a good thing for the clearest sonar
returns. You've got a real smorgasborg of signals bouncing around there. How is the
software going to interpret all that mess? I'd say with some pretty bad images.

Some people take months to adjust and dial in their transducers to get the very best images, even when their transducers are installed per manufacturers specifications (to the transom).

Quote

I have ran all power wires completely separate from all other wires in shielded data wire to a complete separate battery. And the results can be seen in the last pic above.

Does this mean that your sonar is hooked to it's own separate battery? If not, I would do that.
Sonar's don't draw much, you don't need a big battery. If you do have a separate battery for your sonar and you have wired it away from everything else, then this is very confusing why you
would get any type of interference.

I don't think you will be able to judge any sonar pictures, or interference issues for that matter, accurately, until you get your transducer mounted in a low turbulence area without an open
metal box surrounding it.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.
Best of luck to you.

sonar2000 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 23, 2011, 03:59:48 PM »

I am a bit curious as to why the interference at all. Past sonars did not have these problems.
I really believe that as with all electronics these days the quality of the product is lacking in an effort to reduce costs. Not only sonar but any thing electronic. Components are not what they used to be.
In the higher end sonars I dont see these problems but then again I am paying a higher cost for the units.
I would guess you get that which you pay for.
Most of the issues are also with user installation and because of the operating characteristics of the unit we dont hook up with things like interference on our minds..
Not to say professional installers know what they are doing either..
It seems a big gamble to buy and use with out some prethought to what is going on these days...
So this makes this forum a great place to get ideas before the purchase..
It does pay to shop around and ask questions...
Chuck

stillbear · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2011, 06:49:44 PM »

Quote from: ITGEEK on September 23, 2011, 03:09:40 PM

Bushwacker,
I have not seen a transducer installation like yours before, even though you say they are common. It seems to me that you are set on keeping your transducer on your jack plate.
You did ask for opinions, so here's mine:
I think you are in for lots of heart-ache, expense, and wasted time if you keep your
transducer on your jack plate. You'll be cussing Humminbird, and your installer because
you won't be satisfied with the results.
To be honest, I think your transducer is mounted in one of the worst places possible.

It's close to your engine prop.
When your prop spins, it's going to aerate the water around your transducer.
Air bubbles and sonars don't go good together.
Also, that transducer is sending out beams out both sides and straight down.
You are going to have all kinds of signals coming back and bouncing all around the inside
sides and inside top of your jack plate.

This is also not a good thing for the clearest sonar
returns. You've got a real smorgasborg of signals bouncing around there. How is the
software going to interpret all that mess? I'd say with some pretty bad images.

Some people take months to adjust and dial in their transducers to get the very best images, even when their transducers are installed per manufacturers specifications (to the transom).
Does this mean that your sonar is hooked to it's own separate battery? If not, I would do that.
Sonar's don't draw much, you don't need a big battery. If you do have a separate battery for your sonar and you have wired it away from everything else, then this is very confusing why you
would get any type of interference.

I don't think you will be able to judge any sonar pictures, or interference issues for that matter, accurately, until you get your transducer mounted in a low turbulence area without an open
metal box surrounding it.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.
Best of luck to you.

ITGeeK I have mine mounted same place he doe's no problem. The prop has nothing to do with his issue.
The prop is behind the transducer. His biggest issue is the boat is Alumminum.The jackplate is the safest place
to put your transducer from getting destroyed. Gary

Rickard · « **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2011, 07:12:39 PM »

I would mount the transducer on a pole and try out the best location at low speed. High speed is never of much use for sidescan imaging anyway. Just hold the pole firmly close the transom and check when things looks ok on the display. Draw a mark on the pole and the edge of the boat. This should be repeated a couple of times. It's always easy to get good results with very deep transducer altitude, so try to find the shallowest location possible. The location theories can point out the approximate location, but the practical test will determine the final placement.
Don't run two sonars on the same boat at the same time at the same frequencies, no technology can do much about the resulting interference.

Rickard

ITGEEK · « **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2011, 10:47:35 AM »

My bad.
I just haven't seen pictures of transducer jackplate installations.
I guess it's probably more for bigger/saltwater boats.

Roddy · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2011, 02:32:40 PM »

Nope! Its a bass boat thing.

Ddorriety · « **Reply #17 on:** September 24, 2011, 02:45:25 PM »

When mounting the transducer in front of the prop you need to be careful not to create turbulence that may cause cavitation
of the prop.

stillbear · « **Reply #18 on:** September 24, 2011, 04:25:22 PM »

Quote from: Ddorriety on September 24, 2011, 02:45:25 PM

When mounting the transducer in front of the prop you need to be careful not to create turbulence that may cause cavitation
of the prop.

When the boat is going forward and the transducer is mounted in front of the prop it will not see
what the prop does. Gary

Del · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2011, 08:19:15 AM »

Quote from: stillbear on September 24, 2011, 04:25:22 PM

When the boat is going forward and the transducer is mounted in front of the prop it will not see
what the prop does. Gary

But on higher speed the transducer will cause a caviation bubble in front of the prop which will cause "breakdowns" on your boat speed / engine cause of missing water floating to the prop. I've had that on my setup. Its not critical to the SI images but it takes power from your engine.

greetings

rdendy · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2011, 05:03:24 AM »

Another option you may want to consider is dual transducer on the transom. I have a War Eagle 861 Predator (Aluminum Hull) and due to turbulence from hull design that seemed to be the only fix. A friend of mine has the same boat and he kind of pioneered this solution before I got mine so I had it dealer installed like that. My 798 works better now than it ever has on my previous boat. I couldn't ask for better images than what I'm getting. I'm not an expert but wanted to pass it along. I would also suggest the Teflon mounting plates so you can move the transducer around without drilling a bunch of holes. I would post some pics of mount but I'm at work for 2 weeks but willing to do so if necessary.

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