Author Topic: Looking for a different kind of splitter  (Read 5321 times)

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Offline johnmr12

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Looking for a different kind of splitter
« on: February 28, 2015, 10:45:00 AM »
Let me start by venting. I have owned Lowrance units for years, and I loved how they performed. My neighbor talked me into buying the hummingbird unit for the side imaging feature. I spent $1500 for a unit that can't track the bottom when the boat is on plane. I made several attempts to adjust the transom mounted transducer, and finally gave up. I called support to see if I was somehow missing something, and was informed that the side imaging transducer can't track the bottom at speeds above idle. Hard to believe, but true. So, they told me the answer is to buy ANOTHER transducer to mount thru the hull and attach a Y cable so the unit now uses the hull transducer for bottom tracking and the transom mounted transducer for side imaging. Can you say "mickey mouse"? ok, I am done venting. So, now I am able to track the bottom while on plane, but the signal is not as strong as the transom transducer was. So I am forced to mark a spot on the fly using the hull transducer signal, then when I idle back over that spot, I unplug the hull transducer and plug the side image transducer cable into that connector to get a better picture of the bottom. Does anyone know of a sp-litter cable or switch of some kind that would allow me to be able to view the down imaging signal alternately between the 2 transducers without having to manually unplug and plug each connector every time?


Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 11:49:07 AM »
Well welcome to the Humminbird Side imaging Forums anyways johnmr12.

It seems you have been given some false information or perhaps you misunderstood the information you were given.  The 898c units ship out with the large XHS-9-HDSi-180-T transducer, which has both the 2D and Si sonar elements built into it.  If mounted on a boat where it will receive un-aerated water flowing across it, the unit will track bottom at just about any boat speed (your boat cannot outrun the sonar signal).  However, if any air bubbles flow between its 2D transducer element and the lake/river bottom it could in fact lose its track of the lake bottom just like any other sonar on the market.  Now the Si sonar cannot update as fast as the 2D sonar and so at speeds above a fast idle, you start to lose detail.  I personally have been on a boat and used the Si sonar at 45MPH but the transducer was positioned in a location that made this possible and there was very little detail in the Si sonar at that boat speed.  Not all boats have a location to allow for Si sonar at that speed nor do they have a location for 2D sonar at high-speeds.  Those that have locations for 2D sonar at high-speeds may do so while exposing the expensive XHS-9-HDSi-180-T transducer to possible damage from floating debris, logs, rocks and trailer bunks/rollers or may cause water flow problems through the propeller or for the cooling water intake of the motor.  Many planning hull type boat owners opt for the inside-the-hull transducer and AS-Si-DB-Y cable, which Humminbird started producing at their request after we first started producing the first Si sonar units.

If you are noticing a difference in the signal strength of an inside-the-hull transducer versus an externally mounted transducer, you are either a very perceptive sonar user or the inside-the-hull transducer was not mounted properly.  Proper mounting of an inside-the-hull transducer includes on the water testing of the hoped for mounting location.  Failure to do that can result in reduced performance of the inside-the-hull transducer.

Humminbird does make an TS3 Transducer Switch which would allow you to switch from the inside-the-hull transducer to the HDSi transducer.


Most of the seasoned sonar users on this website can confirm the information I have posted.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline Bob B

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 12:50:19 PM »
+1 to what Greg said .... I don't have anything to add except that if you post some pictures of your transom from various angles, we could look at your installation and see if anything could be improved.

How are you liking the Si?
**Looking for the one that makes it all worthwhile**

Offline johnmr12

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2015, 06:08:38 PM »
Greg, while I certainly don't dispute you when you say you have seen boats that track the bottom at higher speeds, I can only form my opinion based on my own experience. I have a ranger bass boat, which is a very common hull design. The humminbird transducer was installed by an authorized dealer. They put it at the highest point of the transom where it could be installed, so when it failed to track, I assumed it was them who installed it too high and it was coming out of the water. I have a hydraulic jackplate, so between trimming the engine and raising the jackplate, I'm sure most of the hull is out of the water. So, I re-installed it myself in the exact same place that my Lowrance unit transducer had been, which always tracked the bottom while on plane. That location is right next to the drain plug. First I had the bottom of the unit flush with the bottom of the hull. That didn't help, So I angled it slightly at a down angle. No difference, then slightly at an up angle, still no good. So I slid it further down so the seam where the top and bottom halves come together was flush with the bottom of the hull. That didn't help, tried the up and down angles again, no deal. So I slid it further down so the entire unit was below the bottom of the hull. No deal. I'm not a professional, but I am mechanically inclined, and I am satisfied that I tried every possible location, and if the transducer is coming out of the water, there is no other place back there any lower than where it is now. Why it fails when the Lowrance unit worked certainly leads one to think there is likely something wrong with the product rather than the installation. As for the hull transducer, I tested it first in the spot it is now Epoxied. I was only concerned with seeing the signal while on plane, and it does that. However, when I took the time to view bottom structure and cover at slow speed using the hull transducer and then going over the same location with the transom unit, in my opinion the transom mount has better detail. So, I would like to look further into this TS3 switch that you mentioned. I didn't see it on the hummingbird site. Do you have a link?

Offline johnmr12

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2015, 06:23:36 PM »
I found the TS3 switch, and it appears to be what I am looking for. Does anyone here have this installed on their boat? I would love to pick your brain before I invest in one.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2015, 06:44:50 PM »
The difficulty in getting high speed readings with the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T has more to do with xducer housing design ...and your ability to get that skateboard xducer in "clean bubble free water" ...

If any bubble (from the housing design, installation position, boat strakes, etc) get between the xducer face and the water ... You will lose the reading ...

High speed skimmer xducers are "pointed" in the front for a reason ... Water flow dynamics ...

This is an imaging xducer and its main purpose is imaging (at slow speed)...  because of the inability to manufacture an imaging xducer housing (with these long SI piezoes) with high speed water flow dynamics ...

HB just adds the 2d piezo for the simplest installation of not every application needing high speed depth readings ...

Read the installation postings at Bass Boat Central ...
http://www.bbcboards.net/humminbird-sonar-gps/172972-installation-networking-information-resource.html

Most fiberglass high speed hull designs owners opt for the "shoot thru with AS SIDB Y cable" because they realize the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T "imaging" xducer is just not really designed for high speed water flow dynamics ...


Rickie
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 06:48:06 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 06:51:10 PM »
And yes I have the HB TS3 switch ... But in a different application ...

I can help you if you have questions about the function of the HB TS3 switch ...

Rickie

Offline johnmr12

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2015, 08:03:20 PM »
Rickie that makes a lot of sense, and explains why the lowrance transducer worked. It was shaped differently. That brings up another set of questions that I don't expect you to know the answer to, but it makes me wonder if Humminbird makes a skimmer type transducer with side imaging capability, and if not, does Lowrance. The Lowrance unit that I replaced did not have side imaging. Since Greg is able to get a reading with this same side imaging transducer, I wonder how he is able to avoid the bubbles and I'm not. The area of the hull directly in front of the transducer is flat with no strakes, so there doesn't seem to be anything to cause the turbulence. ok, since you have the TS3 switch, I wanted to get a better understanding of how it functions. Currently I have the Y cable coming out of my 898 and splitting signals between the 2 transducers. The hull transducer has 2 active pins for 2d down imaging only, and the Side image transducer plug has 4 or 5, so I assume it is processing left and right SI as well as temp. What I am trying to understand is how the TS3 switch would be installed in the system. In my mind, I see the Y cable that I have staying plugged into both transducers, but instead of the other end of that cable going into the back of the 898, it would be plugged into the back of the switch, and another cable would go out of the switch and into the back of the 898. Is that right?

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 11:43:35 AM »
The XNT 9 SI 180 T (Compact SI) (on the right below) is shaped more like a skimmer xducer ...but still not as pointed as the XNT 9 20 T Dual Beam skimmer (in the center below) ...



But there are disadvantages to the XNT 9 SI 180 T (Compact SI) ...

*The SI piezoes are shorter ...meaning less detailed SI images ...
*The SI piezoes are only designed to vibrate at 455kHz ...your 800kHz SI imaging selection would not be very good at all ...
*The mounting bracket is plastic and not as strong as the metal bracket of the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T ...

If you find that it is just too difficult to find an area on your transom to get the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T in clean bubble free water for high speed readings ... There are options ...

1. Shoot thru XP 9 20 (Shoot thru) with the AS SIDB Y cable (we have already discussed) ...
2. XNT 9 20 T (transom mount) with the AS SIDB Y cable (the skimmer would be easier to find an acceptable area on the transom simply because the housing design of the XNT 9 20 T has better water flow dynamics) ...
3. True "Thru hull" SI xducer ...
http://www.humminbird.com/Products/XPTH-9-HDSI-180-T/
4. HB TS3 switch with the added XP 9 20 (shoot thru) or XNT 9 20 T (transom mount) ...

I will discuss the HB TS3 switch is a separate post in a few ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 11:46:19 AM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 12:06:05 PM »
The HB TS3 switch does not function like any of the HB "Y" cables ...

"Y" cables physically separate the channels (wires going to the xducer) ...such that some wires are redirected to "a" xducer - and the the other wires are redirected to "b" xducer ...

The HB TS3 switch physically redirects all the channels (wires going to the xducer) ... Such that all the wires are going to "a" xducer in one switch position - and conversely to the "b" xducer in the opposite switch position ...

So you will have the following switch position scenario(s) with the HB TS3 switch...

Replace the AS SIDB Y cable with the HB TS3 switch ...
*HB TS3 switch position "1" ... will allow 2d/DI/SI/Temp to come from the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T ...
*HB TS3 switch position "2" ...will allow 2d to come from XP 9 20 (shoot thru) or 2d/Temp to come from XNT 9 20 T (transom mount) ...(Depending on which 2d xducer install you choose) ... P

Rickie
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 12:19:56 PM by rnvinc »

Offline johnmr12

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2015, 01:24:39 PM »
My transducer is the one on the far left in the picture. It's basically a square. Through research, I have discovered that the bottom signal is in fact superior with this transducer, and that is why I do see a difference when viewing the bottom with that transducer versus the thru hull one. I understand that I would be eliminating the Y cable that I currently have that separates the signals. None of the pictures of the TS3 switch shows the rear of the switch, but from what I am able to see, it appears to have electrical connectors sticking out of the back. That is where I am getting a bit confused. That switch has to have 2 female type receptacles for inputs from the 2 transducers, and another receptacle to send the output to the 898 unit. The switch doesn't look large enough for all of that. Do you have a picture of the rear of the switch that I can see?

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 02:23:55 PM »
The pic of the HB TS3 switch is deceiving on the HB website ...as the website only shows the 12v power toggle ... and not the switching mechanism itself ...

I don't have a pic of the switch mechanism itself and I have it buried in this control box with some of my other experimental xducer stuff ...




The HB TS3 switch mechanism is a small molded plastic block filled with epoxy ...(about 1" x 1" x 2") ... (You can barely see it in the top right of my control box under some of the wires) ...

Out of this molded block there are 3 xducer cables and a 12v power supply wire pair (red & black encased pair) ...

*1 xducer cable plugs into the back of the unit ...
*2 xducer cables plug into separate xducers ...
*The 12v power pair hooks to the actual toggle switch you see on the HB website ...
*The toggle switch hooks to your boat's 12v supply ...



This HB TS3 switch mechanism is unique in that one xducer cable leg of the setup does not even require 12v power ... This xducer cable leg is a "line thru" xducer cable design ... Such that the sonar data can flow thru the molded block and down one of the xducer legs "unhindered" ... Much like a train on a railroad track flows unhindered ...

Toggling the switch sends 12v power to the mechanism in the molded block to disconnect the "line thru" xducer cable and redirect the sonar data flow down the opposite xducer cable leg ... Much like a switch on railroad track is energized to redirect the train down a different track ...

So even tho the toggle switch on the HB website shows the indication as xducer "1" and xducer "2" ... The toggle is actually "Power On to molded block" and "Power Off to molded block" ...

"Power Off to molded block" ...allows sonar data down the "line thru" xducer cable leg unhindered ...
"Power On to molded block" ...disconnects the "Line thru" leg and redirects the sonar data to the other xducer cable leg ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 07:10:09 PM by rnvinc »

Offline johnmr12

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 06:06:34 PM »
Hey Rickie, I can't thank you enough for your time and help. Your description was perfect. I know exactly how it works now, and it is exactly what I was looking for. It looks like it's going to cost me another 60 or 70 bucks to get this thing right, but it's better than having to constantly disconnect plugs all day long. Thanks again.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Looking for a different kind of splitter
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2015, 07:05:40 PM »
We learn together ...

That's why we're here ...


;) :)


Rickie
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 07:06:45 PM by rnvinc »


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