Topic: Search for a 6 year old.

[pmburesh]

We recently were called to assist in a search for a missing 6 year old. 5 acre pond directly behind subjects house. Our team has an 1197c with chartplotter, another team used the Marine sonic unit. Average depth of water was 9ft. It took us a while to find her, up against concrete dock pillar, masking her location. I have included some screen snapshots of pond, extremely clean. Family requested not to have snapshots of subject posted.

[RGecy]

Yes, we do not allow images of bodies unless it is up for intepretation.

I would like to start a private "SAR" only forum that we can post images like this for reference.  The forum would be closed to the public and would be a great resource for other SAR members to use.

Robert

[sonar2000]

Victim images are sensitive pictures and need to have tight controls. 
SAR image interpretation are not all that plentiful and can be a good learning tool.

If we were to start a closly moderated, selectable viewing section, we also would have to make sure that images posted cannot be copied or distributed.

While we all want to learn, the family privacy needs to be the forefront of all decisions to post a picture. 

Lets think this thru.......

Chuck 

[soretoe]

I agree with chuck. We have a mod thread. Should be able to do the same for SAR people only.

I belong to the Patriot Guard and we are not allowed to even tale photos of the family or the casket. At times families ask for those type of pics and they are the only ones that get them. We have a web site with thousands of pics and you will never see family members on them.

[pmburesh]

The only way I would post a picture of a subject is with an absolute guarantee it would stay within our community and it would be only for interpretation and helping other get up to speed.
I would love to see a second password protected forum strictly for SAR images.
Just my two cents.
We do this so other may live.

[sonar2000]

This would be nice to have a "protected" area of the forum.  Adding a password is not that difficult but being able to keep the picture on the site and not export or copy it would be the bigger coding.
we could restrict the viewing here but if we can export or copy the picture to another site then it is no longer protected.
I think the idea is good and will help to lower the learning curve for object identification or give additional assistance in intrepreting a display.
Chuck

 

[Jolly Roger]

I agree with all of you.

It would be nice to get SI images of victims for to learn how a body would look like on the screen. Maybe we will be called out to such a case one day and it would be good to know what to look for.
But I don't want to hurt the feelings of the families of the victims. They suffer enough and there's absolutely no need or excuse to hurt their feelings even more.

My two cents

Harry

[RGecy]

Chuck and I discussed this earlier today.  Pretty much, the forum will be for SAR members only and there will be no personal data released on images posted of bodies.  The purpose is for training only and all that would be needed would be a few details on the conditions: water type, location, clarity, depth, freq used, settings, etc.  Maybe info on time in water would also help. 

This keeps it cut and dry.  No personal info.

Robert

[IRC Kevin]

I too think that a dedicated SAR thread would be a good idea for training purposes, although I'd probably leave out 'location' (as in place) as this gives clues as to identity. I also think that there would have to be some form of authentication process to identify genuine members of SAR organisations.

To use victim photographs or not is an issue we have visited many times in our USAR role and have learned to be very cautious about allowing ourselves to be filmed or photographed 'at work', particularly when it comes to the media, who have resorted to some very underhand tricks in interviews or over the phone, to get hold of sensitive information. We now use a very 'discreet' package of pictures (held by a very small number of trainers) with advanced trainees only, to give them some sort of idea of what they may have to face in a collapsed building.

[RGecy]

I could make it by admin approval only and there would be nominal annual membership fee.  Something small like $20/yr, but it would help weed out any non-SAR members just looking to get in.

Robert

[sonar2000]

I think this should be admin authorized, also a fee based (annual) subscription. And maybe a form stating no reproduction or distribution along with a statement  that the information will be used solely for training in the use of side image identification.
I would also like to see a form for requesting access as a subscriber that ust contain reference (verifiable) as to the SAR membership status.

Chuck

[pmburesh]

I would be willing to contribute $20.00 to make this happen. Credentialing is a must, if you are on a bonified team, shouldn't be a problem. Those in the SAR community are very tight lipped about search events, so I feel the credentialing process should suffice for this forum. Anyone caught deviating from the forum rules will be immediately banned from this forum. One thing we haven't talked about is the possibility some lawyer might hear about this forum and subpoena the content. I am sure there are lawyers present who could answer this question and our legal obligations.
I would love to see this Idea go forward, we in the SAR community will do what ever it takes to make this work.
Thanks for your consideration.

[IRC Kevin]

In the UK, evidence from rescue teams is sometimes used in coroner's inquests- we have no problem with this. I can't see that anything appearing on here would be of interest to lawyers, apart from those who have already had a legal right to view it anyway.

[sonar2000]

I am guessing that any picture posted here would be of the target and with that said we would recover same. I am not sure if we want to post recordings where the target is not identified for several reasons, but a later review could show it. that might end up in a court. so I would say we should limit the post to the actual picture (snapshot). 
Again I want to make sure the picture is protected and not copied or reproduced.
Chuck

[Kimi]

It would be nice to get SI images of victims for to learn how a body would look like on the screen. Maybe we will be called out to such a case one day and it would be good to know what to look for.

Agree whit that!


But I don't want to hurt the feelings of the families of the victims. They suffer enough and there's absolutely no need or excuse to hurt their feelings even more.

I cant see how it could hurt anybody, if only showing SI-pics whit no personal information? An "outsider" would probably not find anything they could recognize on a SI-snapshot? Even for an expert it is very difficult to find what you are looking for.
What really hurts, is to not to find the missing persons body.

I too think that a dedicated SAR thread would be a good idea for training purposes, although I'd probably leave out 'location' (as in place) as this gives clues as to identity. I also think that there would have to be some form of authentication process to identify genuine members of SAR organisations.

Yes, but think worldwide! The few real experts on sidescans in my country does not belong to any kind of SAR teams, they are "civilians" that helps if needed. If we receive and share SI-pics globally we Will get a lot more information and from very different condition! The organisations involved in searching of missing persons can be very different in different counties.

we also have to remember that this site may give the "kick" and a good start to the SAR-sidescan experts of the future.

Kimi..

[sonar2000]

Our original thought was to share pictures to help learn the images produced. One thing I have learned over time is that a target can be represented in many ways. A lot depends on the direction of the scan as it passes over the target.
Quite often the target does not have the shape we think of a body with head and limbs. This all depends on the position of the target as it lays on the bottom.
Here is a hint for training, use a pig carass for imaging. a 100 pound pig is good..
A representative scan may produce a good image if the bottom is clear of any other material.
Once the target immerses in a tree, or trees, bushes, lake debris, rocks, manmade structure then the target begins to lose the shape we normally are thinking we would expect.
Sonar scans for victims are often done with the thought that it is there and we are reallying looking for any abnormal bottom dispay. A lot of experience is the common thread.
Also being able to say the target of interest does not exist in the search are is vital. Now here is where you have to be very experienced.
I agree that a restricted gallery is a good tool for viewing. But it has to come with the caveat that is will not be reproduced or redistributed.
And limited to those representing a search organization. For places where a SAR with sonar does not exist, a provision from the authority having jurisdiction could serve to have that resource identified.
Another thought is that each sonar has its good points and has its limitations so for this forum we would be talking only about the HB unit. Circumstance's will dictate the product selection. The better search teams have several types of sonar to compliment the short comings of each particular device.
All this said I will get up with Robert and see what we can do over the next several months to make scans available for training..   
I would like to see small contributions toward the maintenance of this selective thread. (not a lot are contributing) normal.
Another thought is to have a couple of guys that can review your scan to see if anything might have been missed.
In general I would like to see a regionalization of expert resource to make SAR scans. Bottom line is that most will not see but one or two call mission per year and this is being liberal. Some folks have sonar and only one drowning in 10 years. Kinda of hard to get experience this way.
Keep thoughts coming so Robert and I can make informed decisions with regard to enhancing the forum,
Chuck

[Rickard]

I have found at least 14 sonar images from drowning victims on the net. They are all published by SAR organisations or sonar manufacturers. If they can, why can't we do the same?
There is one thing in common with these images, the victim's legs are distinguishable, while the rest of he body and the arms are usually not.
Rickard

[sonar2000]

It was a position taken by Robert and I to not post anything until we had control of the data. As yet we have not set up any area for the disclosure of pictures but do in the future plan on making training available to this select group.
The only people who should be viewers are those who are active SAR members.
Hopefully more on this soon.
Chuck 

[depark1]

It was a position taken by Robert and I to not post anything until we had control of the data. As yet we have not set up any area for the disclosure of pictures but do in the future plan on making training available to this select group.
The only people who should be viewers are those who are active SAR members.
Hopefully more on this soon.
Chuck

I see that you have not made any updates to this possible idea of sharing images for training.  Is this still something that you are looking into doing?  I know that myself and a few other SAR team members from here would find this extremely helpful.  Just wondering if there has been any progress yet.

Cheers
Darryl

[sonar2000]

Darryl. nothing much except to allow pictures on the open forum. (with) description of the posting).
We had a seminar scheduled for last year that never came to be.
Would be nice to do but logistics and cost have an extreme influence.
It is up to Robert to set up a restricted viewing gallery and that is my suggestion for the SAR group.
I know he has been busy but will address this with him again.
For now, if you post pictures just use your good judgement.
We want the picture to display training information and not a "look at what I found" theme.
If you post a picture I would ask that you provide a training description of the picture. In other words, why the picture is of value to someone else.
Chuck

[Rickard]

Darryl,
You might have seen it, but I presented the results from a web search for images from drowning victims here: http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=3443.0
Almost all the images are presented with reports on search and rescue missions.
/Rickard

[depark1]

Thanks for the update Chuck.  Rickard, I did see the thread that you are referring and it is a great list that you put together.  Thanks
Darryl