Author Topic: Best side-scan on the market today? (Read 16003 times)

bigkahuna · « **on:** August 09, 2016, 05:53:59 PM »

I know this is a loaded question and this is a Humminbird forum, but you guys have a lot more experience with these off the shelf units than I do. Who would you say makes -the- best (consumer level) side scanning/imaging sonar today? I'll be using it along with SonarTRX for general search and recovery work. The higher the resolution and greater the flexibility (working with other software / hardware) the better. I have a Garmin unit right now, but have been eyeing the Humminbird units for a long time. Or should I look at Lowrance?

Bob B · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2016, 10:24:08 PM »

Humminbird introduced side scan to the fishing units, and overall still has the best SI .... Some of the Garmin units actually have greater range, but lack the details.

Lowrance has never had the range on their SI that Humminbird has.....but the gen 3 units are better in that regard.

Now days, they are all good ..... for Humminbird, the Onix would be the most all round flexible unit available.... the Helix 10 and 12 would also be good choices.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2016, 06:44:44 AM »

Thanks Bob. I was looking at the specs and screenshots from the new Raymarine CP200 yesterday. That looked like it had potential, especially because the transducer can be "tuned" for either deep or shallow water. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be any way to record the SI data so I wouldn't be able to review the data on a laptop or use SonarTRX / ReefMaster to create a mosaic.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2016, 07:16:42 AM »

I started researching the Onyx and found a notice that comes with the unit: "The port labeled VIDEO is not for consumer use". What's that all about? If the port isn't for video use, than what is it for?

sonar2000 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2016, 10:34:17 AM »

Humminbird works pretty good. especially the newer units. However if you are going below 60 feet probably there are better units.
Chuck

Bob B · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2016, 11:53:55 AM »

Humminbird does seem to be falling behind in terms of video input and output, Wifi, Bluetooth.....Generally others are making greater advances in connectivity.

Humminbirds strength are in the great Si, 360, and general ease of use..... The Onix, is more complex, however, because there are a lot more options on how to configure things.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2016, 01:54:55 PM »

The HB Onyx has a "video" port in the back that looks like a mini USB connector. I can't find any info on it, any idea what it's for?

I've got a Garmin display and Panoptix transducer that I may sell and get a decent SI unit. I'm by no means married to Garmin and have been following HB SI for years. Would you say that, as far as SI resolution / clarity, Garmin, Lowrance and HB are all about the same? I honestly don't need fancy features, but do want a high resolution, super sharp looking SI image.

Bob B · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:08:21 PM »

There are going to be as many opinions about who has the best SI as there are people .... Traditionally, it was mostly accepted that HB SI was the best .... but the industry is undergoing rapid change right now.

I don't have the Onix, so don't know about the video port.....I thought it had an HDMI port, but it's been a while since I looked into that.

Spd 135 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2016, 05:57:08 PM »

I meant to add this: One is downscan and one is 360 but sidescan is as good at depth. These are from older units and I can imaging HB is getting better.

Laurel Lk Ky using 997c SI

Laurel Lk Ky 2 divers 360 dropped to 80'

rnvinc · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2016, 08:17:19 PM »

The Video Out port (HDMI) does work on ONIX ...

I use it in my seminars connected to a 40" flatscreen ...

Rickie

fishreed · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2016, 11:09:04 PM »

Not one mention of the advantage and superior imaging of a DUAL SI HD transducer set-up with a Dual beam 83/200 transducer handling the 2D imaging?

....If you guys think you are getting good side imaging with only 1 Hd side imaging transducer....you guy better re-think your transducer set-up. My 1199Si's dual HD SI transducer with a 3rd dual beam transducer 83/200 handing the 2d imaging with blow away a single SI transducer Onix 10. Not even close.....I tried it and the compared results were a different as night and day. those single side imaging transducers always pick up the live well screen, other transducers and kicker motors.....and then guys come here to try and figure out why they got side interference?

Pay the extra money and get your SI unit hooked up with dual HD side imaging transducers running on your boat. You have no business commenting on how good or bad hummingbird's sideimaging quality is or isn't without using the full capability of dual SI transducers and THEN comment on how good Humminbirds side imaging quality is or isn't. Rickie knows what I'm talking about.

mako9man2 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:20:18 AM »

Quote from: fishreed on August 10, 2016, 11:09:04 PM

Not one mention of the advantage and superior imaging of a DUAL SI HD transducer set-up with a Dual beam 83/200 transducer handling the 2D imaging?....If you guys think you are getting good side imaging with only 1 Hd side imaging transducer....you guy better re-think your transducer set-up. My 1199Si's dual HD SI transducer with a 3rd dual beam transducer 83/200 handing the 2d imaging with blow away a single SI transducer Onix 10. Not even close.....I tried it and the compared results were a different as night and day. those single side imaging transducers always pick up the live well screen, other transducers and kicker motors.....and then guys come here to try and figure out why they got side interference? Pay the extra money and get your SI unit hooked up with dual HD side imaging transducers running on your boat. You have no business commenting on how good or bad hummingbird's sideimaging quality is or isn't without using the full capability of dual SI transducers and THEN comment on how good Humminbirds side imaging quality is or isn't. Rickie knows what I'm talking about.

How does a Dual SI HD set up handle DI imaging? Is there any improvement in the DI image?
I just upgraded my 999 to the Helix12 si and was amazed at the difference in the quality of the images just using the single SI td. I am guessing the improvement was a combination of the higher resolution screen/screen size and the faster processer.

Bob B · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2016, 11:48:51 AM »

You can get great SI on most installations without using 2 HDSI transducers.

There may be some reflection from other things on the transom, but that is mostly from the weak lobes.....and can be mitigated by how the transducer is mounted. A 2nd transducer will only give minimal improvement.....Yes, the result will be a perfectly clean water column, but not a night and day difference if the transducer is properly mounted.

There are certain hull types where there is not way to get a good image without having at SI transducer on both side, but it is the exception.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2016, 01:35:30 PM »

@Fishreed - Can you give me a link to this dual transducer set up you're talking about? I can't seem to find any info on it.

So looking at the specs, it appears that the best HB SI transducer for SAR work is probably the model XT 14 74 HDSI T. Is that the transducer that comes with the Helix 10 SI GPS?

bigkahuna · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:08:36 PM »

I was called out for a SAR mission today (3 mile x 3 mile area along a large river). The search today was on land but may switch to the river in the next few days. I may need this sonar sooner than I anticipated.

Bob B · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:15:50 PM »

I would take a serious look at the Onix .... The combination of SI and terrific DI would be a great tool.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:40:00 PM »

@Bob - Is the Onyx worth the extra $1,000 over the Helix? Keep in mind, this won't be used for anything but SAR. I'll have to look for some videos that show SI + DI on the Onyx to see what that looks like.

Bob B · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:48:49 PM »

If you do some serious shopping, you should be able to find a good deal on an 8NT or 10NT....There have been some discount sales on them recently from Online providers ..... Cabellas had a really great price, but I think they are all gone.

fishreed · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2016, 09:52:09 PM »

Quote from: Bob B on August 11, 2016, 11:48:51 AM

You can get great SI on most installations without using 2 HDSI transducers.

There may be some reflection from other things on the transom, but that is mostly from the weak lobes.....and can be mitigated by how the transducer is mounted. A 2nd transducer will only give minimal improvement.....Yes, the result will be a perfectly clean water column, but not a night and day difference if the transducer is properly mounted.

There are certain hull types where there is not way to get a good image without having at SI transducer on both side, but it is the exception.

I disagree strongly Bob and I did all the various mounting options with my 3 portable clamp mounts and compared the results on-water in real time fishing situations on Rainey Lake and Lac Seul before I drilled one hole on my boat. What you call reflection , I CALL BLOCKAGE. I have no idea on what you mean by "lobes". I have a very normal aluminum Monark 16' 1" boat with a 5-7 degree transom bottom hull 3 rib bottom angle....not completely flat but NOt a deep V angle by any definition. . Have you did the dual set-up personally on any boat and compared it with other mounting options? Or, is all based on what somebody told you? Why would anybody want a synthysized 83 KHZ beam angle? I want the real McCoy 83MHZ actual picture by the best suited transducer on what is under my boat and to the side as a single HD SI transducer isn't up to the job. The reality of this is the vast majority of guys haven't the foggiest notion or the ability to mount a transducer correctly and that isn't a slam at them by any means. I'm an engineer and I deal in detail and performance and I wont't tolerate 2nd best if there are other better and provable options at additional reasonable costs. I did all my home work on what the capability with the various mounting options and I did it on water in real time fishing conditions. The fact is, no matter how hard I tried, a 1 HD SI transducer loses signal at 8-10 mph maybe less depending on the quality and postioning of the transducer. .......that's an undebatable fact. It even loses bottom when mounted slightly inder water like other "skimmer" type transducers above 10mph. I refuse to be sonar blind after 10 mph and you will be if you use just a single HD SI or the compact SI one, which I think very little of. Since the HD SI tranducer images between water's surface and bottom The single HD side imaging transducer is going to pick-up an unclean "OBSTRUCTED" image to an obstructed side no matter how you mount it and I won't deal with a synthesized phony 83KHZ image. This is what what I proved in my year long study. Two HD SI Transducers with the proper cabling with a dual beam 83/200 mounted on the INSIDE of either of the SI tranducers gives a 100% pure best signal AND you have a 2-D sonar reading above 10 mph. It just doesn't get any better and I don't care what kind of hull or boat you have. It might even be better if you are running a Helix 12 with dual transducers but I'm not going to pay that price untill they drop it. Ricki can repost his schematic of a dual SI beam with a dual beam set-up....I couldn't find his great picture post on it, but I did see it. As soon as I get my boat back from replacing a bad timing trigger gizmo under the flywheel , I will post a picture of how I did what I did after experimenting for a year. There is a guy here who has picture of his Lund boat with a dual set-up that's real good too!

rnvinc · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2016, 10:04:39 PM »

Quote from: bigkahuna on August 11, 2016, 01:35:30 PM

@Fishreed - Can you give me a link to this dual transducer set up you're talking about? I can't seem to find any info on it.

So looking at the specs, it appears that the best HB SI transducer for SAR work is probably the model XT 14 74 HDSI T. Is that the transducer that comes with the Helix 10 SI GPS?

The XT 14 20 HDSI T is the stock xducer that comes with the ONIX SI units ... (It is 14pin and will not work on any HELIX or core unit) ...
-----
-----

The HELIX 10 SI would need ...

*2 XHS 9 HDSI 180 T ...

* 1 XNT 9 20 Dual Beam (transom mount) ...
- Or 1 XP 9 20 T Dual Beam (shoot thru hull for fiberglass hull) ...

* 1 AS SIDB Y cable ...

* 1 AS SILR Y cable ...

Rickie

fishreed · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2016, 10:07:25 PM »

Quote from: bigkahuna on August 11, 2016, 07:40:00 PM

@Bob - Is the Onyx worth the extra $1,000 over the Helix? Keep in mind, this won't be used for anything but SAR. I'll have to look for some videos that show SI + DI on the Onyx to see what that looks like.

For SAR....you really need the biggest screen available....Get e 12 inch screen and never look back. I always recommend the biggest screen. With my 1199Si with a dual SI transducers, a blind liberal Democrat could identify an underwater log or rock/boulder at depths to 40 feet. I say 40 feet because I never saw a log in deeper water. I had no problem identifying sunken logs in Canada. A sunken log is a good representation of a body on the bottom of a lake or river. I could do SAR with my 1199SI dual SI transducer set-up with the 10.4 inch screen and be very comfortable with no problems!

rnvinc · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2016, 10:17:30 PM »

Quote from: mako9man2 on August 11, 2016, 07:20:18 AM

How does a Dual SI HD set up handle DI imaging? Is there any improvement in the DI image?
I just upgraded my 999 to the Helix12 si and was amazed at the difference in the quality of the images just using the single SI td. I am guessing the improvement was a combination of the higher resolution screen/screen size and the faster processer.

The HB core SI units do not have a down pointing DI piezo ... The core SI unit uses the data from the SI piezoes and rearranges the data to "look like" a DI image ...

So the DI image (in the HB SI core unit) would show the same improvement from the dual xducer Setup ...

Rickie

Bob B · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2016, 10:24:02 PM »

Fishreed ..... The lobes I was talking about are the lobes from the transducer beam ..... Some of the weaker lobes actually go beyond 90 degrees to each side ..... These weak lobes are responsible for a lot of the reflected signal, but don't affect the strength of the main beam.

I have a deep V aluminum boat and I do also run the high speed 2D transducer so I can keep the SI transducer up a little more out of harms way....I get 2D readings at WOT without endangering the SI transducer ......But I didn't see a need to add the 2nd SI transducer.

Here is an illustration posted some time back on here showing how the SI beam lobes.

bigkahuna · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2016, 06:05:16 AM »

Is DI actually that useful for SAR work?

I've been studying the info on "AutoChart Live" and think that's an important enough feature that I'm definitely going to get an HB. I agree, bigger is better, when it comes to screen-size, and if I can find a deal on a 12" display that's what I'll get.

rnvinc · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2016, 08:02:05 AM »

Here's the beam forms of the 455kHz and 800kHz compared that show the side lobes ...

Rickie

newkid4si · « **Reply #25 on:** August 13, 2016, 09:55:17 PM »

bigkahuna

I would pay very close attention to this earlier post. This gentleman probably has logged more hours in SAR that the rest of us combined. I'm not current on the capabilities of other brands,
but I find the real benefit of these units is when I remove the SD card that has the raw data captured on it and review it on a laptop/desktop using these 3rd party viewers. That is when
you truly see the information that is available. Humminbird has met my needs.

Mike

Posts: 5957
Re: Best side-scan on the market today?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 07:34:17 AM »

Humminbird works pretty good. especially the newer units. However if you are going below 60 feet probably there are better units.
Chuck

fishreed · « **Reply #26 on:** August 14, 2016, 01:15:40 AM »

Quote from: newkid4si on August 13, 2016, 09:55:17 PM

bigkahuna

I would pay very close attention to this earlier post. This gentleman probably has logged more hours in SAR that the rest of us combined. I'm not current on the capabilities of other brands,
but I find the real benefit of these units is when I remove the SD card that has the raw data captured on it and review it on a laptop/desktop using these 3rd party viewers. That is when
you truly see the information that is available. Humminbird has met my needs.

Mike

Posts: 5957
Re: Best side-scan on the market today?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 07:34:17 AM »

Humminbird works pretty good. especially the newer units. However if you are going below 60 feet probably there are better units.
Chuck

Trying to find a dead body on the bottom with today's Humminbird SI units is pretty easy....as compared to finding walleye...I will match his SAR time with my fishing and screen interpretation time any time. Get the big screen and run a dual SI transducer set-up...no room for 2nd best in this game.

fishreed · « **Reply #27 on:** August 14, 2016, 01:34:01 AM »

Quote from: bigkahuna on August 12, 2016, 06:05:16 AM

Is DI actually that useful for SAR work?

I've been studying the info on "AutoChart Live" and think that's an important enough feature that I'm definitely going to get an HB. I agree, bigger is better, when it comes to screen-size, and if I can find a deal on a 12" display that's what I'll get.

You know what Big Kahuna? ...I DON'T USE the DI screen views all that much or at all in finding suspended walleye....I find myself always in the 2D-455khz SI split screen views with the SI range set between somewhere between 50- and 100 feet to each side. THe DI imaging view just doesn't thrill or impress me that much since I've used 2D "HOOK" imaging for so many years. I just don't find it much of an advantage when I'm looking for open water suspended walleye under suspended schools of ciscoes, smelt or other suspended bait-fish types. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm really not all that impressed with DI screen views. When I have found the big walleyes under suspended school of baitfish, I have found same DI imaging views of the same fish didn't impress me as compared with traditional 2D "hook" and SI views. ....but that might be just me.

newkid4si · « **Reply #28 on:** August 14, 2016, 07:23:31 PM »

fishreed

I'm curious. Please tell us how many search missions you have been on and about your recovery success. I have followed the discussions on here and didn't realize it was that easy.

Chuck has been doing this for years and uses equipment that cost over $100,000. Even with this experience and equipment, it requires considerable time and effort from his team.

Mike

mike fish · « **Reply #29 on:** August 14, 2016, 10:26:51 PM »

What are the limitations after 60'?
What is needed to have good results deeper then 60'?
Not that I fish this deep very often just curious what sets these different models apart from each other.
Which ones are better over 60'?

fishreed · « **Reply #30 on:** August 14, 2016, 11:12:46 PM »

Quote from: newkid4si on August 14, 2016, 07:23:31 PM

fishreed

I'm curious. Please tell us how many search missions you have been on and about your recovery success. I have followed the discussions on here and didn't realize it was that easy.

Chuck has been doing this for years and uses equipment that cost over $100,000. Even with this experience and equipment, it requires considerable time and effort from his team.

Mike

NONE...but then I don't have any extensive experience in sticking my finger in a oxy-acetylene torch either. The fact is for a drowned dead person laying on the bottom, the immediate availability of a $100,000 side finding sonar (if one even exists by a non military source ) just doesn't exist. THe vast majority of drownings occur on small inland bodies of water in small areas. The set-up I and others use for fish finding is ideal for finding dead bodies and stolen vehicles under water. I would challenge MR Chuck to use his many years of SAR experience looking for dead bodies to come and show me his superior sonar knowledge on finding big water suspended walleye. For some unknown reason, I haven't ever heard of Mr Chucks name in any walleye fishing articles or electronic fishing sonar evaluations? So who are you to denigrate my sonar interpretation skills because I don't look for dead bodies? A friend of mine last year found stolen S-10 pick-up truck in 18 feet of water with a SI Lowrance HDS 9 set-up and said it was so easy a Caveman could have done it as the vehicle was submerged for over a year.

Bob B · « **Reply #31 on:** August 15, 2016, 01:01:02 AM »

As the famous quote goes ..... Now there you go again

sonar2000 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 15, 2016, 08:34:50 AM »

Mr chuck does not use sonar for fishing. It is all SAR. However in the many years of using sonar and of the way it is used for SAR, we become familiar with normal displays. I think I could find "fish", In fact running sonar we often remark about the school of bait or fish or other non related SAR displays.
Lets get back to the original post and the help for Best Side-Scan on the market Today.
Robert does not tolerate bickering.
Chuck

newkid4si · « **Reply #33 on:** August 15, 2016, 03:15:27 PM »

Chuck

You are correct. This is my last post on this topic. I respect you and everyone else that is involved in SAR. I'm aware of the skill, knowledge and time it takes to do the job.

Thanks to you and all others that are involved.

Mike

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