Author Topic: Interferences / transducer problem (snow on screen).. 998c (Read 33883 times)

peterv6i · « **on:** March 14, 2014, 09:42:13 AM »

I have done a simple test today...
On my boat I have 2 batteries...
First battery is connected to my outboard engine Yamaha F-80
Second battery i have used for my HB 998c (only sonar was conected on this battery)...

I noticed that:

(sonar on first battery, engine on second battery, engine running)
The picture is clear but there are some "pixles" or "dots" painted on the screen
(sonar on first battery, engine on sencond battery, engine is not running)
The picture is perfect - clear

(sonar and engine on the same battery, engine is running)
Picture is not so clear as in first scenario.. There are some "pixles" all around the image..

Is there any solution to avoid this?
Also when the sonar is on the separated battery there are some interferences (spark plugs problem ?!)

All the wires from engine and sonar are on the same side because there is no other possibility..

peterv6i · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2014, 04:37:58 AM »

Here I have found a tutorial on sonar noise...

http://www.biggeorgiaspots.com/boats-and-electronics/62-other-stuff/180-aaargh-sonar-noise.html?showall=1

anybody had this problem with outboard and sonar?

newkid4si · « **Reply #2 on:** March 15, 2014, 09:59:04 PM »

peterv6i

If you suspect spark plug noise, try contacting the engine manufacture to see if they could recommend a different plug.
You could also have a cracked or fouled plug. Maybe a bad plug wire. The fun never stops with anything operating in the marine environment.

Mike

peterv6i · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2014, 03:19:20 AM »

Hm.. yes ... fun never stops

I have a yamaha F-80.. the spark plugs are new (3-months old) NGK LFR5A11..
Anybody know the substitution for LFR5A11 spark plugs with something else?

Maybe the transducer cable is close to power cable coming from engine... I will try to separete them just for test..
The second option I have is to "wrap" the transducer cable with inox mesh wire and put the wire on "-" of my battery...

Rüdiger · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2014, 06:20:49 AM »

Hi Peter

If the battery with which you run the sonar is loaded from the outboard motor, the problems are determined by the generator of the AB.

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2014, 01:56:24 PM »

Ok I understand...
I will use another battery only for sonnar but the problems are few more...
Today I tryed to test the sonar with engine off...
I get strange picture.. every n-time I get some type of a "signal" - "ramp" !?!?..
In this mode the sonar can't work.. (I know how the sonar must work because I used several ones from Eagle to Garmin)..
If I switch on the engine the 2d sonar is just unusefull....

Is this maybe the trasnducer fault?

On the image below.. the engine is not running! The sonar is connected directly to ACU.. whata are those random lines (ramp)??

Rickard · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2014, 04:33:45 PM »

Peter,
If the time gap between each "notch" is one second I believe it's either a GPS or a watch somewhere in the boat that causes the problem.
Rickard

newkid4si · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2014, 07:57:51 PM »

peterv6i

That is the correct plug. Did a internet search and no known problems with it. Unless it's one of the things I mention, I suspect a different cause.

Mike

peterv6i · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2014, 03:04:39 AM »

Quote from: Rickard on March 16, 2014, 04:33:45 PM

Peter,
If the time gap between each "notch" is one second I believe it's either a GPS or a watch somewhere in the boat that causes the problem.
Rickard

ok! I will check today... yesterday I dismounted the "plugin" connector with 3 cables (power, gps, transducer).. If I remember I have attached only power cable and transducer cable.. The GPS was not connected to the device..

I will also test my device with totaly new transducer (my friend has one)...

Why the GPS influence on sonar data? Why the device draw a "gap - ramp" on the screen?

The engine was stoped when I tested the device.. so the yamaha tachometer watch was off.. the only device that I have with me was a GSM..

thank you..

Rickard · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2014, 03:46:46 AM »

Quote

Why the GPS influence on sonar data?

Most GPS units acquire a position once a second and also send data to other instruments at that pace. I use an external Garmin with my old HB 981 and there are sometimes traces from GPS data transfer periods in the sonar image.
I would test with turning off that GSM phone too....
Rickard

peterv6i · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2014, 04:40:58 AM »

Rickard...
do you think that this "gap" - "ramp" from GPS will instantly change the fish finder depth on the screen and in log files?
I noticed in my log files when viewing them in humviewer that I get some type of "edge" .. let's say the bottom is at 20 metters but fish finder
sometimes recive a signal with different data showing me different depth (example a gap which change depth form 20 to 40 metters)..

Or with other words... If I have a "auto depth" the sonnar will receive some times a "false" signal showing major depth that realy is... (random)

In few days I will receive a new GPS receiver and transducer.. So I can compare my GPS, transducer with new one...

regards
Peter

peterv6i · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2014, 08:01:06 AM »

I will also try to put a 100nF capacitor between rectifier regulator on my outboard engine.... (just for test) and some ferrite coil between outboard power cables.

peterv6i · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2014, 02:44:04 PM »

I was on my boat today....

The problem for "gap" is not the GPS neither GSM... I have deatachet GPS from the unit and the unit periodicaly draws every n time that "impulse"...

If in the main menu I changed MAX DEPTH to AUTO this will produce gap's every n time... (default is set to auto)

The outboard engine is off... on the acu is attached only fish finder and no other device...
selecting 83kHz from main menu shows me a picture with a lot of pixles (unusefull)

Selecting the 200kHz for 2d wan't work well.. also the surface clutter shows me a kind of color bar...
Autodepth wan't work.. it gives me no depth or random depth..
Left side is with engine off..
Right side is with engine on.. (the engine is not attached to the batter on which is attached FF unit)!

If I pull out the transducer connector from my unit and switch to side scan I can see some random pixles..
Why the unit shows somethings when nothing is connected to it?

(on the bottom of the image the transducer is connected to the unit, on the upper side the connector is disconected from the unit)

The temperature is also strange.. the sea has (12°C = 54 °F) the unit shows me -3 °F

I don't know what else I can do..?! I'am not sure that my unit works ok..

rnvinc · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2014, 09:30:13 PM »

In your post #12...the 3rd image...the unit is showing 14.4 volts...but it is also showing a "low voltage" popup...

Have you had this battery load tested...?? (Power supply problems can cause some really weird issues in these units)...

Also in that same image...you have the "Lower Range" set to 8ft in manual ...but the actual digital water depth is missing...

Was the water deeper than 8ft at that point....(a manual "Lower Range" setting of less than the actual water depth can really make the 2d image irregular looking...)

Also...I'm not sure if your water is actually salt water..but you might try the other "Water Type" settings...sometimes the algorithyms for one setting will work better than others...even try the Freshwater setting...

Rickie

peterv6i · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2014, 01:53:29 AM »

Quote from: rnvinc on March 17, 2014, 09:30:13 PM

In your post #12...the 3rd image...the unit is showing 14.4 volts...but it is also showing a "low voltage" popup...

Have you had this battery load tested...?? (Power supply problems can cause some really weird issues in these units)...

Also in that same image...you have the "Lower Range" set to 8ft in manual ...but the actual digital water depth is missing...

Was the water deeper than 8ft at that point....(a manual "Lower Range" setting of less than the actual water depth can really make the 2d image irregular looking...)

Also...I'm not sure if your water is actually salt water..but you might try the other "Water Type" settings...sometimes the algorithyms for one setting will work better than others...even try the Freshwater setting...

Rickie

The low voltage is shown because when I switch on the engine the voltage drop down (I missed the exit button on my unit so the message is displayed on the screen)..

If I set the auto depth I get gap's on the screen.. (I will upload some video to show)...
Also the temperature is not -3.0°F

I have set depth to manualy to 8ft because in this way I get the picture of bottom.. depth is actualy 6 ft bellow my boat..
Auto depth wan't work...

I will test the unit another time with full filed battery.. but.. if I can start up engine with 80hp also the ff unit must work with this battery?!

peterv6i · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2014, 05:24:30 AM »

Here is the first video:
- unit is connected to battery.. enigne is not running..


Humminbird 998c auto depth problem.? transducer problem?

Second video:
- Engine is running
- Engine power cable is disconected from the ACU
- Sonar mode 84/200kHz
- Snow on the screen
- Depth is 95 feet ?!?! flashing..


Humminbird 998c, engine running, 83/200kHz snow on the screen

Third video:
- Engine is not running
- Sonar is set to side scan
- you can see gap's every n-time and sonar then stops for the moment (waiting for?)
- random temperature
- max depth is set to AUTO
- GPS is attached to the device


Humminbird 998c - side scan - gap - random temp

-gps is not attached to the device (i tryed also with attached gps)
-gaps every n-time
- sonar wait for a while
- max depth: auto


Humminbird 998c - sonar view- gap's - waiting for?

Rüdiger · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2014, 06:03:25 AM »

Hi Peter

On 11.Dec 2013 you have a picture of your transducher posted, as you can see, the cable entry has been retightened with sealant.
Do you have to use a other transducher which is possible ?

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2014, 06:13:02 AM »

I will try with new transducer...

I have put some sealant arround the wire because many friends from Croatia told me that they had big problems with humminbird transducers.. average every 2-3 years they must change the transducer.. ?!?! They told me that this is a realy weak point (where the cable enter into transducer)...

mine transducer is also 3 years old or more ?! (I have used this trnasducer for 3 months) I don't know how it was used / mantained before i bought the sonar.. booo..

Rüdiger · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2014, 06:34:47 AM »

HI Peter

About such problems with the durability has not yet been reports here in the forum, but of course, intense sunlight, and PVC's are not the best of friends

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2014, 09:57:51 AM »

Is there a way to measure transducer with some multimeter or osciloscope? or other way to detect malfunction?

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2014, 10:56:01 AM »

No, not without specialized equipment.

peterv6i · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2014, 12:42:31 PM »

Hmm.. ok..
I think that is possible to check the impedance of temp sensor? (for test)
(because if you see my video also the temperature is not right)

Rotus623 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2014, 09:28:42 PM »

Its odd to me that your real time sonar on the last video is not displaying the interference that ends up being on the screen. Have you tried running this unit in simulation mode? Have you hooked the unit up to another battery to rule that out? Do you have the pc-11 power cord which has the ferrite installed on the power wire? I didnt read your thread thoroughly so pardon me if you already answered these questions.

Another odd phenomena could be if you have a radio tower or something similar nearby. You can put your address into www.antennasearch.com here in the states and it will show you all of the antennas in a 4 mile radius. Not sure this works outside the states though. I had a stereo that would pick up interference that I could just not figure out. It turned out to be a broadcast station nearby.

peterv6i · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2014, 01:44:42 AM »

Hello Rotus623...

Yes I have the power chord with ferrite installed.. as I say.. I will try with totaly new tranasducer just to eliminate the malfunction of actual transducer...

I will try another time with separate acu (full filled)

The simulator mode work's fine

simulator mode does not use transducer to achive any kind of data...

I have also put a capacitor between + and - of my engine rectifier just to test if this eliminate a RF garbage but it doesn't work..

Rüdiger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2014, 04:36:04 AM »

Hi Peter

A defective transducher would not explain why the error occurs only when the engine is running. A possible tax declaration would be an intermittent contact or a cold solder joint which affects the vibrations generated by the motor.
Another explanation would be that your engine produces strong electrical noise, you could test with a portable radio.

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2014, 04:50:41 AM »

Quote from: Rüdiger on March 19, 2014, 04:36:04 AM

Hi Peter

A defective transducher would not explain why the error occurs only when the engine is running. A possible tax declaration would be an intermittent contact or a cold solder joint which affects the vibrations generated by the motor.
Another explanation would be that your engine produces strong electrical noise, you could test with a portable radio.

mvh
Rüdiger

Rüdiger the problem is also when the engine is off... The sonar can't read even the depth below the boat.. If I setup autodepth the sonar is not capable to read the depth..
And have you seen my video with side imaging sequence... The temperature is jumping and it's not correct.. I think that in the trasducer there is a thermistor and the unit just measure the impedance of that to obtain temperature...

- maybe the fault is in the cable of the transducer (some shot circuit or other malfunction)..

- Next time when the boat will be on trailer I will test RF noise with the osciloscope...

have a nice day..

I will solve that problem.. in short time

here I have found some interesting article about RF noise: http://www.dieselduck.ca/machine/03%20electricity/radio_interference.htm

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2014, 11:44:56 AM »

Yes you can check the thermistor in the transducer with an Ohm meter but your bigger worry should be the sonar. If the transducer is bad, the thermistor gets replaced anyways and that problem gets solved – though if the thermistor is bad and the sonar of the transducer is good, you still have to replace the transducer to fix the temperature.

I would try the unit on a separate battery that has been load tested before doing anything else.

peterv6i · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2014, 01:21:35 PM »

Quote from: Humminbird_Greg on March 19, 2014, 11:44:56 AM

Yes you can check the thermistor in the transducer with an Ohm meter but your bigger worry should be the sonar. If the transducer is bad, the thermistor gets replaced anyways and that problem gets solved – though if the thermistor is bad and the sonar of the transducer is good, you still have to replace the transducer to fix the temperature.

I would try the unit on a separate battery that has been load tested before doing anything else.

Ok! I will try with full filed acu.. then with new transducer...

I exposed the temperature because is strange that temperature is jumping (random numbers) showing incorrect values on the screen.. The common wire for temp and other 3 piezo's iz GND (ground wire)..
Maybe there is some "bad contact" between ground wire

..
- ground wire between connector and transducer or
- ground contact between 998c unit and transducer connector..

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2014, 04:18:41 PM »

That could be Peter.
I was wondering though that if it is a power issue that is causing the sonar problem; could it also be affecting the temperature?
Maybe it is something arcing in the transducer or unit that is causing both…

peterv6i · « **Reply #29 on:** March 23, 2014, 07:33:30 AM »

Today I hve dismounted a transducer from the boat.. And it was i expected...
The fault is on the side of the transducer where transducer cable enter transducer (plastic)...
The salt watter enters into that hole and eat all aluminium coat on the foil in which cables are twisted up to the connector which enter HB unit..

Incredible...

This is very very very weak point of this "great and expensive" product..
When the salt watter enters into thath hole the galvanic current is produced.. The galvanic current eat all alluminium on that foil's...
In this way the wires are without shield and normaly noise is easy reproduced on the screen..

And what now? to pay 275 EUR for new transducer with the same mistake?!?

Very poor sealing round the hole..

All foils are damaged.. There is no shield to protect it against noise...
(main foil is damaged and also other two foils are damaged)

Cable is damaged on all it's length...

Now I have few questions....
1.) What humminbird say about this? Is there any warranty of this?

2.) I will try to substitute the cable and seal the hole with some plastic (what type of material I can use to seal this?) (polyester, epoxy, ??)

3.) what type of cable is best for this purpose?

somethink like this will solve the problem..

Rüdiger · « **Reply #30 on:** March 24, 2014, 04:23:05 AM »

Hi Peter

At least you now where the error has

You'll probably must buy a new transducher, there will not be guarantee. I would clothe the new cable entry directly with high quality sealant.

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #31 on:** March 24, 2014, 04:34:57 AM »

Quote from: Rüdiger on March 24, 2014, 04:23:05 AM

You'll probably must buy a new transducher, there will not be guarantee. I would clothe the new cable entry directly with high quality sealant.

Yes I know.. first i will try to repare it (if the cooper inside isolation wire is not black)...

Second.. the transducer has very very big fault... especially in salt water and if the transducer is in water constantly...

Third.. Humminbird must solve this "bug" it's quite strange for such product to have a transducer like this..

peterv6i · « **Reply #32 on:** March 25, 2014, 06:29:19 AM »

Has anybody some suggestion how to protect cable ageinst salt water?
I will buy new transducer but I would like to secure the cable to prevent water enter that hole and damage cables and transducer..
How to seal the cable?
I think to weld some plastic tube over the actual hole and fill it with sikaflex or epoxy?

Rickard · « **Reply #33 on:** March 25, 2014, 07:14:46 AM »

Hi, I have used a urethane based compound called "Liquisole" that is ment for repair of soles on shoes. It sticks extremely well to the transducer housing (ABS). It must cure for about two days, though. It's a liquid, to begin with, so you have to arrange with a mould to keep it in place. The result is something that behaves like a rubber connection. Sikaflex may be good too, but I have not tested it. Epoxi and various plastic glues do not work at all.
Rickard

peterv6i · « **Reply #34 on:** March 25, 2014, 10:47:31 AM »

Here is a picture of my friend's second transducer.. (the first one has gone like mine)..
He used epoxy to seal...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jb88n7ht493naaq/2014-03-25%2013.53.21.jpg

humminbird send me an email like this:
"We design all our transducers cables the same way. It is not a design flaw. Apparently the cable was already pulled away from the transducer allowing water inside when you purchased from your friend.
"

I just warn you.. that this transducer is not well done... The watter can easly enter in that hole.. causing galvanic current and damage of the transducer....escpecialy if you use it in salt watter...

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #35 on:** March 25, 2014, 11:46:56 AM »

Peter,
If that were true that anybody that fishes salt water, leaves their boat in the water and who uses one of our Si units or one of our XD (50/200 2D sonar) products would be having this same failure. I don’t know when your transducer was made but we seal that grommet from the inside as well as the grommet making a seal itself. We just aren’t hearing a lot of failures like this or have you been seeing a lot pf posts about this on other fishing boards?

peterv6i · « **Reply #36 on:** March 25, 2014, 01:00:44 PM »

Quote from: Humminbird_Greg on March 25, 2014, 11:46:56 AM

Peter,
If that were true that anybody that fishes salt water, leaves their boat in the water and who uses one of our Si units or one of our XD (50/200 2D sonar) products would be having this same failure. I don’t know when your transducer was made but we seal that grommet from the inside as well as the grommet making a seal itself. We just aren’t hearing a lot of failures like this or have you been seeing a lot pf posts about this on other fishing boards?

Nothink to ofend Humminbird... but
When I post my situation to croatian spearfishing forum I received back almost 5 responses to my post of different persons who have changed transducer every 2-3 years...

If you like I can send on (private message) their emails just to ask them what was wrong... And yes you can see on that image that some of them are "sealing" totaly new transducer with epoxy or other sealant..

Now I will try to repeare current transducer and buy new one... (the prices in EU are from 230 to 300 EUR!!!)

I will seal the new transducer and post the photo here...

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #37 on:** March 25, 2014, 01:55:36 PM »

No offense Peter, just trying to understand it is all and also to let you know that this is not as widespread as it seems. Just to be sure though I’m going to contact a few folks here who are on some of the salt water boards just to see if they have been hearing about this. I don’t know what you guys could be doing differently from everyone else to cause this. When the transducer is mounted, do you have constant tension on the cable pulling that grommet over?

Not that it is a lot of consolation but at least we now know what has been causing your sonar problems.

peterv6i · « **Reply #38 on:** March 25, 2014, 05:26:04 PM »

Maybe the tension is provocated by the boat speed and water resitence when traveling?
The transducer is normaly mounted with no tension.. I have also used a "clip" to fix the cable on the wooden plate (where the engine is mounted).. (before this unit I own almost 3 other FF from hummnbird and last one was eagle 480f but never had any malfunction)...

My question is also.. why the cable of the transducer is not "inside" epoxy where transducers are located?
Why you have wires out of that epoxy?
why are not inside like this:

Today i tryed to repair the transducer but the temp sensor is not giving me any impedance (red wire + common gnd)..
I have tested other 3 piezo's with frequency generator and 10V RMS and measured current on each transducer (all works fine) but I think the unit wan't work because there is no impedance on the temp contact? The unit is giving me that no transducer is connected

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2014, 11:17:42 AM »

Peter,
There should have been some epoxy where the cable enters the transducer housing. I know that we add it to the HDSi transducer by hand before building the rest of the transducer as I see them doing this when I make one of my checks in the transducer area here at Humminbird.

If the temperature sensor is not being recognized by the unit you can try forcing the unit into the Normal operation mode. However, seeing the damage to your transducer; I would advise against it in case there is some sort of short produced which could harm the transmitter of your unit.

peterv6i · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2014, 03:51:22 AM »

Hello Greg,
I have posted some images of the transducer.. there is no epoxy arround "main" wire or .. the cable is not inside epoxy.. The foil and wires were exposed to the salt water or "humidity".. and this caused the problem (galvanic current) etc.. Now I have ordered new transducer..
First I will chek (I will remove that plastic - rubber ring on the main wire) just to see if the main cable is inside epoxy.. if not I will make something to seal that wires or if you have better idea!? (I don't want to order new transducer every 2-3 year's)

If you like I can send my old transducer to you?

thank you...

peterv6i · « **Reply #41 on:** March 27, 2014, 05:33:50 AM »

Here is another transducer from my friend from croatia (cca 600 km away from me)....

The problem is the same..

You can see wires which were not in epoxy (main wire was not in epoxy) and also corrupted foil as mine (galvanic current)..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fs3vl9v56dknc9v/2014-03-27%2009.51.43.jpg

Humminbird_Greg · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2014, 09:44:40 AM »

No need to send me your old transducer Peter.
I don’t think that I would remove the grommet from the new transducer as this would void any warranty it has.

peterv6i · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2014, 05:20:48 AM »

peterv6i · « **Reply #44 on:** April 02, 2014, 03:52:08 AM »

I have ordered new transducer from USA but... I have also modified the old one...

wires.. I say that temperature was not working... I cut off the red wire and put a 3.3kOhm restistor between red wire and gnd..
Now the unit shows me allways 127°F

Over the cable connector i pull a piece of pvc tube... with some elastic I fixed the tube to the transducer housing.
I used epoxy to fix the tube to the transducer..

after that filled up the tube with epoxy resine..

The look is not professional but it work's and now the watter will not enter inside transducer (hope)

Rüdiger · « **Reply #45 on:** April 02, 2014, 04:25:50 AM »

Hi Peter

The original price is worth each repair attempt, and works it again?

mvh
Rüdiger

peterv6i · « **Reply #46 on:** April 02, 2014, 04:56:09 AM »

I will post some photos here.. I have tested the transducer inside a water well (depth 2.5 meters).. and also ordered new one from amazon.com

peterv6i · « **Reply #47 on:** May 07, 2014, 04:37:40 AM »

On my old transducer there works only side scan.. Classic 2d wan't work well.. seems there is some other malfunction inside transducer..
Here I have a new transducer but I make the same "isolation" as on my old one.. I have used epoxy glue with glass fiber.. on the 3/4 of the plastic pipe I put some sealant (sikaflex).. Epoxy is waterproof and it has a resistence of 300 kg/cm2..

With new transducer there are no interferences from the engine!
Also the depth is set to "auto depth"...
There are no "gaps"..
Now all works fine..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anf8drWHCKA

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