Author Topic: Settings for Murky Water  (Read 11806 times)

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Offline 4d-rock

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Settings for Murky Water
« on: August 07, 2013, 05:18:31 PM »
Hey all.  I've been playing around with my 997c SI unit that I got this spring and am still having some issues with image quality.  A little background first.  The transducer placement seems good, I get solid depth readings at all speeds, though I'm not 100% if the angle is perfect. 
The lake I live on is a very muddy/murky lake, you almost can't see the bottom in 1ft of water.  Because of this I am having a little trouble with getting my settings tweaked right. 

For 2D, it seems like I get alot of surface clutter when i turn up the sensitivity, but when I add the clutter filter, It then lowers the sensitivity of everything else so it negates what I just did.  I also am not getting any fish arcs at all, mostly blobs, and alot of them when the sensitivity is turned up.  I really doubt that they are fish.  I also notice some odd vertical lines/graininess in the blobs.  Kind of like interference but I shouldn't be getting any (hooked up to cranking battery, no trolling motor or other finder on).  I don't have any screen caps right now of this but I'll try to get some in the next day or so.  Humviewer doesn't quite show it right.
 
As for Side Images, I think I'm getting alright images, though not as nice as I've seen.  Also it doesn't help that the lake is mainly muddy bottoms with occasional rocks, not the most picturesque.  But I have noticed that I'm getting occasional white dots/horizontal streaks.
Also, when I do come across something interesting like a rock pile, the details seem to be disjointed, like someone cut the picture into strips and then just offset them slightly. 
I have a few screenshots of this from Humviewer.

Pic#1 - Here are some shallow boulders, which sort of shows that disjointed look, as well it has some white dots and streaks, sometimes it's worse than this.
Pic#2 - One of the more interesting structures I've found, it's in the middle of the lake which goes from about 25ft to around 8ft.  It also seems disjointed and also there is alot of surface clutter
Pic#3 - Here there seems to be a muddy bottom but there are weird spots of higher returns, not sure what it is.  Possibly muddy bottom with occasional boulders underneath?

If anyone has any advice that could help me out in my Murky lake would be appreciated.  Oh and I should mention I have read up and tried some of the suggestions found in the Article/Tutorial forum on showing fish arcs.

Thanks,
Adam


Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2013, 10:02:55 AM »
I finally took a chance and upgraded to 6.3 firmware and luckily it went well and there don't seem to be problems yet.  I thought maybe that would give me some new features or options that could help me.
I took the boat out for a few minutes in front of my dock to take some screenshots.

Pic#1 - This is what I meant by vertical lines.  It sort of looks like interference.  This is using low sensitivity, on max mode, with low-med surface clutter.
Pic#2 - Here I increased the sensitivity to 13 and you can see on the right how much it clutters it up
Pic#3 - This is kind of interesting, There is a line of rocks and boulders across a muddy bottom.  And you can see a circular hard spot near the top.  Apparently, the bump in the middle is a cement block the old owner tied is sailboat to.  Not sure what created the hard, circular bottom around it.
Pic#4 - Was travelling parallel to shoreline, there is a weedy point that comes out on the top left.  The rest just looks like muddy bottom with small hard spots and occasional sunken logs (correct me if I'm wrong)

Feel free to comment and give tips, Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:04:06 AM by 4d-rock »

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 12:37:50 PM »
Pic #1 – I can see the vertical interference looking lines.  Are you sure nothing else on the boat is running?  Live wells, aerators, radio?
Does it do this with the motor off?
What software version are you running in your 997 unit?

Pic #3 – The circular spot: could this be where the tie-up line was slack and it rubbed against the bottom as the boat drifted around (which could produce a circular pattern)?

Pic #4 – Could those lighter colored dotted areas on the lake bottom be spanning beds?  I see them in Pic #3 as well.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 12:53:57 PM »
When the 2D sonar screens were taken, I had the outboard running but nothing else.  I believe I saw these lines as before when I was trolling around and stationary.  I'll do another test with everything off to be sure.  The 997c is hooked up to my console which is powered by the cranking battery.  I have a bow minn kota which has it's own battery.  It is running 6.3 as of yesterday just before taking these shots (previously 4.95)

Good call on the circular pattern, it's a logical explanation for it.  I just thought it was kind of neat.

I'm not sure what you mean by spanning beds. I was really just guessing thinking they were buried boulders or something to that affect that would give a stronger signal on a muddy bottom like that.

Do you think I should be tweaking my SI at all?  Or is the quality of the SI what I should expect?

I guess I can work out the 2D quality first and worry about SI later.

Offline freezerfiller

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 06:02:26 PM »
For a muddy bottom, I'd say your SI is great.  I think Greg meant spawning beds, circular depressions where fish lay their eggs, not spanning beds.

Offline LittleGazoo

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 12:20:27 PM »
Maybe Greg meant tanning beds.  :)

I think you SI looks good too. 

Check you transducer's angles to see if level by using a carpenter's level(or torpedo level).  You will probably need to shim a level to get the bubble to read.  Duplicate the on-the-water readings on your boat trailer.  Then check the transducer.
Also if you can, you post a SI snap-shot when idling past some large vertical structure(like bridge columns).  The columns should appear straight and nearly vertical.

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 09:36:44 AM »
Alright, so I was able to get out this weekend and play around a bit more. 

Greg - I tried turning everything off, even the big motor and I'm still getting those same lines.  I also added a magnetic ring around the transducer wire near the unit head to see if maybe that would lessen it, but there was no change.  So does this possibly mean either a) settings are off; b) murky water is creating interference that I can't do anything about; or c) there is something wrong with the transducer (hopefully not)?
I might have to try to go into a clear lake to see if I'm getting the same thing.

Freezerfiller - I thought that was what he meant, and I suppose it is possible for them to be spawning beds, but I thought they went to more gravelly areas to do that near river mouths.  This location has neither and I see this polka dot pattern in many places in the lake, even out in the middle.

LittleGazoo - So you are saying put the boat in the water, place a level on a reference point on the boat.  Get it up on the trailer and get the exact angle, then check the transducer to see if it is level?  My boat stays on a boat lift all summer, so maybe i can see if I can work it out on there.  Otherwise i'll have to take it out and try this. 
And I don't think I have any bridges to scan, and when you mean idle by, do you mean just 2-3 mph or should I shut the motor off entirely?

I'm happy that people are saying that my SI looks good, I thought it did too, I was just hopeful that I might be able to see an occasional fish or school on it.  So far I haven't seen anything recognizable.  And since I can't seem to get my 2D to show arches, I'm really just as oblivious if there are fish down there as I was before.

Thanks for the replies.

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 02:00:18 PM »
Spanning beds?  That wasn’t just a typo it was a full-on brain/finger disengagement!

Yes I meant spawning beds.  They could be rocks or some other scattered more sonar reflecting material.  They could also be where the cover layer of the mud was removed, maybe by fish looking for something to eat?  Sort of the same effect as where the rope possibly dragged?  I was thinking spawning beds though since a few appeared to have depressions within them.  Try making another screen snapshot of one of the areas that has these.  Set the unit to display a smaller SI Range and show only one side (left or right Si sonar, it does not matter).

I’m scratching my head on the vertical lines.  They do appear to always be present in some form so it could be the transducer (or unit) but I don’t think it is a menu setting as I do not know of any that would cause this.  In the images you posted there seems to be some event that is triggering the loss of 2D sonar readings at different times.  This could be interference from the trolling motor.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 03:12:59 PM »
Well it has been a while since I've been able to play around with my setup but I finally got down there to do it.  I had a spare new Dual beam transducer that I hooked up to check and see if it might be the SI transducer that was the cause of those vertical looking interference lines.  I did this at my dock, on the boat lift in 6 ft of water with nothing else in the boat on at all, I thought it was a fair test.  It ended up looking exactly the same regardless of the transducer, still has the weird interference.   
I then tried playing with the different frequencies, sensitivities, filters and chart speed, using a large jig head to act as a target.  There were definitely combinations that worked better than others, but no matter what it still had those odd lines.  I tried to take some screenshots.

S05 - I think this was about chart speed 3, using 200hz.  I have the sensitivity set so that most of the clutter is gone except the line at 2ft (not sure what it is, thermocline?).  You can see me jigging up and down, and then where it disappears, is a blob and disappears again, I tried to pass it through the cone at the same depth to create an arch but that is what I got.
S06 - Similar situation except chart speed 8 and 83/200hz,  you can see the jig but still weird vertical lines and still a blob when I attempt to make an arch. 
S07 - This is chart speed 3 and 83hz.  The sensitivity was dropped just so that there was no clutter and after trying it I see that it has a bit of trouble picking up the jig, still weird lines.  The little bleb at the end at 3ft is my arch attempt.
S08 - Chart speed 3 and 200hz.  This was one of the better combinations that I found.  I could probably bring it up a bit but it saw the jig quite well but still produced a blob instead of an arch and the vertical lines are still present. 
S11 - Chart speed 10, similar to S08 for settings except higher sensitivity.  Same story except there is a constant line at 4ft. 

I hope someone can shed some light on what to try next.  I might put an older firmware on it (currently 6.3) to see if that changes the processing of the sonar data in any way.  Greg, I didn't get a chance to go do a larger screenshot with the side imaging, maybe next outing though.

Any other suggestions?  I really hope my head unit isn't going on me. 

Offline freezerfiller

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 05:01:22 PM »
I'm happy that people are saying that my SI looks good, I thought it did too, I was just hopeful that I might be able to see an occasional fish or school on it.  So far I haven't seen anything recognizable. 

Arent those fish on pic 3 just to the left side of the boat across from the concrete block?  The whitish dots that are casting a shadow.  I'm learning on this as well. 

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 06:40:32 PM »
 Not too sure FreezerFiller, it's tough to say.

But I got to go for another cruise around this afternoon after doing a firmware downgrade to 5.84.

I'm happy to say that I'm getting some nice fish arches now.  I don't think it was the firmware though (though I'll confirm that as I upgrade and test on my next outing).  It defaulted to the 83/200 switchfire and immediately was getting arches and wasn't seeing those weird vertical lines as bad.  If I switch to 200 hz (which I normally use) i wouldn't get the arches.  I also got to take a few more interesting screenshots.  Take a look and comment/interpret if you'd like. 

Thanks to everyone who chimed in, now the tweaking begins to dial in on the best settings for SI.

PS: I think i found my neighbours missing anchor, see pic S20

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 01:10:43 PM »
4d,
The line at 2 feet is what is left of the surface clutter.  Try turning it up a little higher (select a lower number) so that the unit will filter more of the surface clutter away.

At 4 to 5 feet the beam width of the 20 degree 200kHz sonar would only be 1.4 to 1.75 feet wide.  This would make it very hard for the unit to show any difference in the depth of the lure as it came into the sonar beam, passed through the center of the sonar beam, and exited out of the other side of the sonar beam.  The longest distance that this could be would be 0.08 feet (0.96 inches) which is much too small for you to see on a display showing a 10 foot range.  As deeper water depth is better suited for the displaying of arches as the sonar beams spread out more as is shown in your last set of screen snapshots.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: Settings for Murky Water
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 03:41:10 PM »
Thanks for your comments Greg, they make total sense.  Especially after taking it out into deeper water and using the wider frequency.  Because after I made those changes and fiddled around with the sensitivities I came up with some nice arches.

The main reason I was using 200Hz by itself was because of recording.  When you record using 83/200hz or 83hz, the DI/SI gets weird squiggles/interference when viewing in Humviewer.


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