Author Topic: Installing SI transducer  (Read 10091 times)

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Offline mike fish

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Installing SI transducer
« on: July 18, 2016, 02:03:36 AM »
Well I ended up getting a 899 and 999 this weekend because they had some sales going on.

What is the theory behind install instructions? They talk about leveling boat, figuring out dead rise and height of ducer. Is the goal to have ducer sitting level when boat is in water with maybe a slight tilt down in rear of TD?  In laws boat does not visit level in water. I recall a video someone posted of them checking level of boat while in the water and setting ducer up with that dimension .  I tried this to see how close boat was to level and it's off, I expected this because of how boat sits. I also tried the instructions way and clamping TD to board and using c clamps so you can adjust on water. I did all this because I was trying to get the best images the first time.
So what I found was I,m getting blockage from motor. I tried both sides and different locations from motor with still getting blockage until I lift motor almost all the way out of water. It get prop wash. At about 5mph. I had to mount on port side because of trolling motor..
What is ultimate goal in TD mounting?


Offline mako9man2

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2016, 04:38:46 AM »
My boat sits pretty level on the water so getting the 999 TD level was easy.  I had added a 4" jackplate to my boat which worked out fantastic when it came to the SI because it gives me the motor/transom clearance I needed to get a clear SI signal across the transom.  I did have to add a secondary 2D sonar transducer (using the proper Y cable) in order to get clean 2D readings at planing speed.  That big HB TD just would not read properly at higher speed.  Now the 2D TD works great for depth and temp while the larger SI/DI TD is mounted a bit higher on the transom to protect it while under way. 
I can't get decent SI/DI readings going more than 4mph.  If you look at the very best Humminbird SI/DI images posted on the web you will see that most are taken while traveling under 4mph.   

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2016, 10:05:34 AM »
I had a lot of surprises this weekend [ie: not going as planned] from purchasing, high water, storms, and mounting 899. Here are some pics of boat and last ones are I said heck with it and mounted it after moving c clamp board all around to not getting rid of blockage. Last pics are mounted with how boat would sit in water. I did not get out and test again because another storm rolled in.
Also my other boat has a V type transom were this one has a flat type transom.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 10:07:50 AM by mike fish »

Offline Beaulieu80

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2016, 10:56:40 AM »
Wish you best of luck. i have my SI unit for 3 summer now and i'm still not satisfy with the reading at all... so difficult to get a good setup with it.

I use the Cabelas Xducer alluminium bracket to allow me adjust with out doing holes

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2016, 09:56:04 PM »
There is the option of the AS SILR Y cable ...which allows the use of 2 separate SI xducers ...

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-SILR-Y/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjh9aPztf7NAhWC6yYKHaRSBj0QFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNECYgJ1-A8oXZnRQQUVFZxBbLa7mA

*Right SI, 2d and Temp would come the right mounted SI xducer ...
*Left SI would come from the left mounted SI xducer ...

Rickie 


Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2016, 01:48:12 AM »
I did think about dual TD for a moment but I don't want to do that up there, trying to keep it somewhat simple.
What I've gathered and read over the years it seems there looking for a level TD and having contact with water all the time.
Here's a few more details of what I did. I took my 798, TD, etc. with me because I had already called and knew 899 were on sale and I was thinking of upgrading to HD TD so I was going to put my TD on boat or worse case seneriao put the 798 on and call it good if 899 or Helix didn't work out. So I got to store and they had lots of stuff on sale and had to regroup so that's how I ended up walking out with a  899 and 999.
So I set boat up per instructions and my old TD had the same deadrise setting,  so sweet I'll mount it on board and C clamp it to find out best location before drilling any holes. I also wanted to see how boat sat in water for levelness and compare.
So I set out to do some testing. I was surprised to get line in SI mode from motor, both sides of motor, close to motor, farthest away from motor, spaced away from transom and even pushed down below water surface about 12".
 I was also surprised at the awesome images when pushed down about 20" below water surface when holding TD out to side of boat.
So when I got back to garage to compare measurements I was surprised at how differently the boat sits on land vs water and with 1 person or 3 in boat. So that's why I mounted it where I did and with boat sitting level in water measurement.  Whew! Take a breath!!

The 2D pixilation is pretty bad but the software is 7.17 and the newer software should fix this so I'm not too worried about that yet.

So this is why I'm asking what theory is behind HB's instructions?

Also want to thank the members who posted link to video and who ever had the C clamp idea. I don't remember their names. I thought the c clamp idea worked out great for adjustability and would do it again.


Beaulieu80, I understand your frustration. One of the reasons I bought HB again is because of user friendly menu. At what I'm in these 2 for cost if it don't work out I'll sell them and the hit won't be too bad.

Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas coming.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 01:50:50 AM by mike fish »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2016, 12:36:43 AM »
You are correct that the HB xducer installation instructions are intended to make sure the xducer is level with the water's surface ...regardless of boat orientation ....

And that the xducer must have uninterrupted water contact with the face of the xducer ...(Sonar will not read thru air and it takes some time for the Sonar to re-establish bottom contact after air causes interruption in the Sonar signal) ...

Rickie

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 12:35:51 AM »
Thanks Rickie.

 For reference if I'm in the boat by myself it took 11 coins to make level. Now if someone is in bow or middle seat it was only 5 coins. Level didn't seem to change whether idling or sitting still which surprised me. Only thing I didn't think of comparing is what is level of hull compared to say the 11 or 5 coins while in the garage. When we go back up in August I'll mess with it a little more and remember to bring home SD card so I post some screen shots. With the storm that came in and other things I forgot it and didn't think of it till I was an hour from home.

Offline fishreed

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 04:17:50 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with your transducer location or transducer angle, as you should be getting excellent imaging. You have plenty of clear space between your engine for a clear view of your transducer.   The problem I think you have is with that compact SI transducer, which  I think is your problem. Before I went to a dual HD SI transducer set-up,  I  had the single HD TD on a portable clamp on bracket  with a 6 hp Mercury  gas kicker engine mounted on the port side and never once did I have any motor interference with running 2 gas engines and I didn't have nearly the clearance you have on your motor.  I will bet dimes to donuts if you get yourself the HD SI transducer  and install it in the same location you have this one, you won't have any SI interference. I even had a Quadra beam transducer mounted  next to my single HD SI transducer and it still gave me excellent readings.  If you get rid of that compact SI transducer and get yourself a the HD SI transducer with the better long pieazos, you will find your problems will be solved. You have to remember too that the SI transducer is not meant for high speed imaging. This is why I went to a dual HD SI transducer and a separate DUAL beam 83/200 transducer handling the  2D imaging. With my dual HD set up, I can can excellent side imaging up until about 10-12 mph then it doesn't  get a good signal because of non contact with the water. But then my DUAL BEAM 83/200 is good for as fast as my boat can go. What I think you should do is get yourself a HD Transducer and mount it exactly the way you have done here. If you are looking for good 2D imaging when your boat is going faster than say 5 mph then get the cords and go with a 83/200 dual beam to handle 2d imaging after you lose water contact with the HD SI imaging transducer. I know what I have  is an expensive option,  but I am 110% real satisfied with my dual HD SI set up with 2 separate HD transducers with one shooting to the port side and the other shooting to the starboard side and still using the 83/200 Dual beam for high speed 2D imaging. It is an expensive set-up but the imaging is flat out-of-this-world.  I will try to get you a picture of my set-up but at the moment I am waiting for a new connection cord because the DUAL cord I have now has a defective temp line as that has caused boot-up problems with  "no transducer found"  as I stated in a previous posting.   

Re-reading your post, didn't you get a HD transducer with the 999 or was that model not the 999SI model?
[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 04:20:20 AM by fishreed »

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 11:35:38 AM »
fishreed,  Yes I did get a HD Td with 999. I also got a 899 unit too that day which is the unit I mounted on FIL boat up north, which comes with compact ducer now.  That was part of the reason why I took my 798 stuff with me so I could keep the 899 ducer new to do the HD exchange upgrade.

I agree totally it looks wide open and good angle. I spent some time searching this site last night and ironically found some of my old post of my 798 problems but also found other members boats that are similar and have got good results. Even found picture of my boat and that gap between motor/transmon is way less. 
Like I said I'm glad I used c clamp method so I could eliminate some stuff right off the bat but still don't get why white line down center of SI switched from side to side when moving ducer from side to side but went away when motor was almost all the way out of water. Which to me says beam is hitting motor. Again doesn't make sense. I wish boat wasn't so far away I'd really like to go work on it. It's tempting to take a day trip but way to many things going on at home right now.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Offline fishreed

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 12:05:51 PM »
To Mike fish......I really don't think much of that compact side imaging transducer that comes standard with the 899SI  after using  my 2 HD TDers. I too have a 899SI and it came with the compact SI TD and that compact TD  sits new in the box as  I have never used it. I use my 899SI unit for a plotter unit only but since the 899SI is compatible with the older quadra beam TD ...I have the Quadra beam TD mounted on my boat strictly as a back-up.  I use the 1199SI  as  the primary fish/sonar  head unit. One thing I noticed too. is you should get yourself a chuck of 1/2 inch polyethylene mounting  boards to mount the transducer AS IT SAVEs YOU FROM DRILLING HOLES IN YOUR TRANSOM when upgrading to different transducers...BUT YOU PROBABLY ALREADY PLANNED  THAT ONCE YOU GET EVERYTHING SORTED OUT. 

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 02:06:52 AM »
You know I could mount a HD TD on right side and compare the 2 images, that would be easy enough at this point. Hmm?

Offline fishreed

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2016, 11:26:49 AM »
You know I could mount a HD TD on right side and compare the 2 images, that would be easy enough at this point. Hmm?


Just mount the HD transducer on your clamp on board and see what you got. I know you will be very surprised!

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2016, 05:10:28 PM »
Yep that's exactly what I was thinking. My cables are just coiled up in the corner right now because I wanted to test, etc. before running cables permanently.
I haven't used the HDSI before because the 798 isn't compatible but thought my compact views were okay. Of course I've always wanted images like are advertised but realize now there are a lot of variables.

Offline fishreed

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2016, 06:18:39 PM »
Yep that's exactly what I was thinking. My cables are just coiled up in the corner right now because I wanted to test, etc. before running cables permanently.
I haven't used the HDSI before because the 798 isn't compatible but thought my compact views were okay. Of course I've always wanted images like are advertised but realize now there are a lot of variables.

You are a real smart thinking guy Mike Fish...and you will get those advertised images just like I did. ...and if you really want some out-of -this world images go with the dual HD SI transducers setup. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 06:20:11 PM by fishreed »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 04:21:18 PM »
Yep that's exactly what I was thinking. My cables are just coiled up in the corner right now because I wanted to test, etc. before running cables permanently.
I haven't used the HDSI before because the 798 isn't compatible but thought my compact views were okay. Of course I've always wanted images like are advertised but realize now there are a lot of variables.

The 798 (and 798 HD, 797, 698, 598, 398, HELIX 7, HELIX 5 are compatible with the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T ...

The above listed SI units cannot utilize the 800kHz frequency capability of the HDSI ...

But the 455kHz SI frequency will be improved due to the longer SI piezoes in the HDSI ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 04:23:46 PM by rnvinc »

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 08:41:47 PM »
Yep,  that's what I meant the 800khz is not usable. I should have been more specific.

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 01:34:12 AM »
So here are the screenshots I promised. I only have a few from 899 because I forgot to turn back on screenshots after restoring defaults. Ughh!

The last 3 are from 999.

Offline Spd 135

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2016, 10:15:50 AM »
The next time you are in the water use the board / clamp mount.  Once you launch, push the transducer a few inches below the surface.  Your images look a little hot, so play with your sensitivity until you get what you like in your image.  Also play with the range.  455 khz (lower power) goes further and 800 khz (higher power) has less range.  I have obtained my best images from my 455 khz setting.  The line on you image is pretty much something to deal with when mounted on a boat.  It is your boat being reflected by the sonar beam.  When the beam is sent out it hits the bottom and returns.  As the transducer can't capture all returning beams, the beam continues past it.  If there is something beyond (above) the transducer the beam with hit and return toward the transducer.  The transducer reads this returning beam as well.  It is something you just ignore.  Sometimes it does not show, but it is not anything to worry about.  Keep your speed constant and between 3-5 mph.  Make sure you chart speed matches.  That should help some in tuning your unit in.  Mark

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 10:17:13 AM by Spd 135 »

Offline mike fish

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2016, 05:57:38 PM »
Spd135, The line just off of center appears to be reflection from motor as you can see it switches sides of center as I moved TD from one side to another. The third pic is showing what I believe to be prop wash it showed up as I increased my speed.
I hadn't noticed much difference in images if board was lowered below boat but did get awesome images when I held board off to side of boat and below surface about 2' unfortunately that's when my screenshots were turned off.  You are correct I believe my chart speed is fast here because I know I had to turn it down later on.
This is my first time with 800khz option and playing with the 2 I'm finding right now I like the 455 better but it's early too.
I'm still testing or messing around to see what works the best but time, weather and things coming unexpectedly are not allowing me to get back on the water. We have "No Wake" in my area because of high water right now plus there's lots of debris in water.
Couple other items I noticed is how hot that 800khz is and the DI images are much better with HDSI  TD.
Thanks for your input. All input is appreciated form everyone. Thanks.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: Installing SI transducer
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2016, 10:47:56 PM »
Imaging frequencies are speciality tools ... each is really good at some things - but not so good at others ...

800kHz is really good for detail of stuff closer to the boat - you just lose a lot of range ...

455kHz is really good for seeing stuff farther away from the boat - you just lose a lot of detail ...

Use each in the certain task that each is best at ...



Leaving the imaging frequency at 1 setting all the time is like an electrician going to work with 1 screwdriver ...

Rickie


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