Humminbird Side Imaging Forums
Side Imaging Forums => 898c SI => Topic started by: guidoste on January 14, 2013, 07:23:54 AM
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I did update my Humminbird 898 from version 6.180 to 6.570 after this update in the "accessoiry test" I cannot see my GPS Antenna anymore.
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The unit shows a gps position but does not show up in the accessories page. Is that a correct statement?
Chuck
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Yes, sorry I should mention that. Just on the Accessoiry page there is no connection. It takes more time then before that a position shows up. Also radar doesn't show up. So I cannot get the radar windows.
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Same thing happened to my 998. The first time around it took about 10 minutes or so to recognize the GPS was attached. Then it was very slow to get enhanced fix. I reloaded 6.49 restarted, shut down reloaded 6.59 no problems since with gps.
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Is it possible to return to your previous level until this is fixed?
ok I just saw the Jim Jack post...Try his suggestion...
Chuck
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I did. Version 6.180. But then I don't have radar support.
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Did you reinstall 6.5 as jj suggested..
Chuck
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Remember to set settings back to default,
before and after any update.
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I made a major mistake. I thought quick downscale the version. By accident there was version 4.8 also on the SD-Card. Now the unit starts up with the Humminbirdlogo in the centre and after a few seconds the Logo is on the top left of the screen and stay that way the unit doesn't startup further.
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Try to start the unit with out any cards in it..If successful then do a factory restore defaults and then install a sd card with only the level of code you want to install.
Do not have any waypoints or other data on the card.
chuck
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The unit starts up till the logo jumps to the left top of the screen and stop starting up. In the past I had something like this with a Humminbird 997 and there was a simple trick with a key combination.
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Did it have to do with starting the unit in simulator mode or something like that. Or was it pressing several keys at the same time to start up..
Chuck
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It was pressing several keys. Tomorrow I'm going to call the representative for Humminbird in The Netherlands. Maybe they are able to help me.
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Sounds to me like you will have to send you unit in to Humminbird to get it re-programmed.
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I would talk to your HB dealer guy first. Although HB is known for issues with update. Their program is not very forgiving if you dont do all the steps in order and exactly as HB wants...
If your unit has gone bad with the update process you local dealer might be able to fix quicker than sending it in to the USA. It will depend on what HB has given him to work with...
Chuck
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I'm a local dealer :-\ . Sometime your fingers are faster then you mind. So I made a mistake. In the Netherlands I'm almost the only dealer that provide users with updating their unit. We update over 250 units a year (For a small country as The Netherlands that is a lot) People are afraid to make a mistake and drive over 100km to let their unit be updated. Once a year I make a mistake (1 of 250 :) , Lucky I've the mistake for 2013 now) This time is the first time I cannot fix it myself within a few minutes. But I'm going to find out.
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The 997 units ran on a different base programming than do the newer 8/9/1100 series units. They do not have the same boot strap mode that you can sometimes use to recover the older units like the 997.
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Greg,
I do understand that Humminbird doesn't want to make public how to fix this. But sending the unit to the USA? I'm going do contact the distributor in The Netherlands (Technautic) They have directly contact with Humminbird maybe they know how to solve this.
Regards,
Guido
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I agree with you and especially as a dealer, outside the united states, You should have tools available to support your customers. This includes factory restores of damaged software.
Losing the bootstrap tool was a great loss and should not have happened..
Chuck
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International Service Centers do have a way of reprogramming units. I don’t know who these people are (it could be each Distributor) but this will not always work.
Guess I should have been more clear in my earlier post: instead of “Humminbird” I should have stated your local Humminbird dealer. In this case it would be the next entity up the chain: the local Humminbird Rep.
The boot strap was not added to the Linux based units. Originally, in the Matrix units, it was going to be the way that Customers would program their units, but a faster/easier way was developed (the first units that would have used it would not have had SD card readers in them necessitating a PC Connect cable). The Linus based units have SD card readers so this was never written into their programming.
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It would be nice to field fix a bad upgrade code. As was in the bootstrap. As it is now with the Linus processory we (in the field) cant do any thing except send it to HB.
Might a possible addition in the future help us out...and sdave shipping cost and time down..
Chuck
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It would be nice to field fix a bad upgrade code. As was in the bootstrap. As it is now with the Linus processor we (in the field) cant do any thing except send it to HB.
Might a possible addition in the future help us out...and save shipping cost and time down..
Chuck
+1 Definitely!
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International Service Centers do have a way of reprogramming units. I don’t know who these people are (it could be each Distributor) but this will not always work.
I have serious doubts about this. Faced with the same problem. A year ago. Units (898с) was patched the old version of the firmware than it was produced. The device does not boot. No one could help me, but to send for reprogramming to Alabama. Greg, the technology became available now? In that case I am wrong.
The Linus based units have SD card readers so this was never written into their programming.
This involves reprogramming memory chips. A very complex process.With the SD card flash reprogram failed. No matter how many days I would not suffer. :(
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This is what I got thru the distributor from Humminbird:
"He is correct the only way to fix this would be to send it back to us. We don’t even have a way to re-flash these units in a boot mode; we will have to replace the program chip on the PCB with a new part. On all units it is a good practice to never go back in software past what the unit was shipped with. Sometimes our new hardware is not compatible with old software."
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This is what I got thru the distributor from Humminbird:
"He is correct the only way to fix this would be to send it back to us. We don’t even have a way to re-flash these units in a boot mode; we will have to replace the program chip on the PCB with a new part. On all units it is a good practice to never go back in software past what the unit was shipped with. Sometimes our new hardware is not compatible with old software."
It is. Do not waste your time. Unit back to the factory. Greg (with all due respect) is a little wrong.
International Service Centers do have a way of reprogramming units. I don’t know who these people are (it could be each Distributor) but this will not always work.
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Hi Guidoste
I hope that you will not have long to wait for your unit, I've been waiting for 124 days !!!! :(.
mvh
Rüdiger
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My customer is going to kill me if I have to wait such a long time. I let you know how long I've to wait.
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My customer is going to kill me if I have to wait such a long time. I let you know how long I've to wait.
I understand your condition.
Have recently been the topic of the absence in Europe of the normal service Humminbird . Maybe something will change. Although this little hard to believe. In the meantime, I advise to send it to the factory as soon as possible by courier (DHL, FedEx)
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We are able to do a lot of things for our customers. With our experience mostly I don't need Humminbird. Our company (Ribbink Nautic) would like to become Humminbird Servicecenter in Europe. To be clear, servicecenter is not the same as distributor!
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We are able to do a lot of things for our customers. With our experience mostly I don't need Humminbird. Our company (Ribbink Nautic) would like to become Humminbird Servicecenter in Europe. To be clear, servicecenter is not the same as distributor!
Unfortunately at this time distributor acts as a service center.Correct me if wrong. Although it is more accurately called a point for units to send them back to the factory. Although I wish you luck with that. Holland closer to me than USA. ;)
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Guidoste’s 898 unit does sound like it will have to be shipped back to the factory to have the memory device replaced. If something on a Linux based unit goes wrong while programming it; it will have to have the memory device replaced. Some international service centers (or whatever they are called) can handle this type of service while others cannot. Most I would think could not due to the nature of the part itself.
With non-Linux based units they should still have a way of possibly recovering a unit that had problems when updating.
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Some international service centers (or whatever they are called) can handle this type of service while others cannot. .
If you could please an example of such an international service center.
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I don’t even know where these are. You would have to contact the Humminbird Customer Resource folks about their locations. Even then I doubt that they would know who has what servicing capabilities.
My comments were based on a conversation with someone in our Service department earlier today.
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I also know a service center. It is located in Eufaula :)
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The one Eufaula rocks.
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If you could please an example of such an international service center.
I would also like to know! :(
mvh
Rüdiger
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I agree and think a list of overseas centers would be nice. Especially since we have over 6700 members, and a number of which are outside of the USA.
Chuck
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Guidoste’s 898 unit does sound like it will have to be shipped back to the factory to have the memory device replaced. If something on a Linux based unit goes wrong while programming it; it will have to have the memory device replaced. Some international service centers (or whatever they are called) can handle this type of service while others cannot. Most I would think could not due to the nature of the part itself.
With non-Linux based units they should still have a way of possibly recovering a unit that had problems when updating.
Greg--
This really surprises me.... The service function that allowed bootstrapping in the previous units should be no harder to have in a Linux unit.
Actually I believe that there probably IS a service menu in the Linux versions.... It would be extremely rare for there not to be.
Likely the problem is with HumPC not being able to network with the Linux units..... Again that would be surprising because Linux computers are networked with other operating systems all over the world.
I know I can take any one of my four Linux laptops.... completely hose the operating system on the hard drive, and have it booted up with a new or even different version of Linux in a matter of minutes..... ::)
Straw
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Straw....one of the reasons we (our team) has not gone to the new linus processors is exactly what you are talking about,... the inability to field bootstrap and have to rely on HB to fix. We deal with search issues and dont have time for factory repair down time. However we do have other sonars to use in case of HB failure. (these are not HB units)..
The point being is that HB has some units that perform to a certain degree of function with good results, but as with any device it has limitations. There are times for HB brand and there are times for the other brands.
In a search it is critical to apply technology to the fullest and be able to reach a decision that meets the needs of the search. This means the search tool box must always have working and dependable "tools".
Searches are not planned events for the most part and the tool "out of service" could be the difference in finding or not finding the object of interest..
Some budget constrains may mean that some agencies cant have two of everything, with one unit being the primary and one the backup.
Your comment on the HBPC is well taken and in hindsight HB may realize the decision of losing the Bootstrap, but by now should have resolved that problem.
Field bootstrap may not be applicable to everyone but for those who can operated the program it should be available. I would hate to have to send in any of our compters to restore the system..
Hopefully HB will see the error of its way and the loss of bootstrap (field level) and get us tools to help our equipment provide a service.
If we had known the direction of HB with the xx98 products we may not have ever bought one (1197) in the first place. If we were just starting we definately would not have purchased an 1198. Searches are too important to be second rate in ability and production towards the end result. And that is to find the object of interest.
Chuck
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Straw, If there is a way I haven’t heard of it yet.
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Greg, we know that.
What we are asking is that you all understand the signifiance of a bootstrap program and how the lack of one hampers the user in restoration of the unit without having to return. The issue is not a physical component failure requiring replacement, but rather a software glitch which can be restored to operation by bootstrapping.
These fishfinders have progressed into the age of computerism and now must be treated in that light.
When the failure is within the software portion due to those things that cause the computer to act funny, then computer mentality has to be applied. For example; upgrading the code and finding that is does not "take" thus freezing the processor, needs a field ability to "bootstrap and go back to the previous level. And not render the unit unuseable with out factory restore and cost..
HB is too far into the sonar world now to let something like bootstrap give a bad name to the units.
And to take the possibility of not making sales and remain a viable offering to sonar.
We know you personally cant make company decisions for setting policy, but as a representative to this forum we do ask that you make our pleas heard as we do not always have the input to HB and such it is thru you that our pleas are directed to HB.
Chuck
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Straw, If there is a way I haven’t heard of it yet.
Greg--
Understood.... But you can bet that there is some service menu available in the newer Linux units... HB would be shooting themselves in the foot if there wasn't, because they would have to take every unit apart and replace the firmware just to do simple diagnostics on it.
As Chuck said not having a field bootstrap option is a HUGE step backward.
Bootstrapping has been around as long as there have been computers..... Even back in the early 70's when the first Altair computers came out you could Bootstrap them.... Of course then you had to enter the bootstrap code through the front panel because reprogrammable non-volatile memory wasn't common yet.... :P
Straw
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When a unit is returned to HB for repair HB repair makes money $$.
End of story.
Roddy
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When a unit is returned to HB for repair HB repair makes money $$.
End of story.
Roddy
I am not personally ready to jump to that conclusion.... That would make the company predatory, if I were to decide that was the case they would not be able to keep me as a customer....
Remember HB does not HAVE to provide updates at all. They do it because it is good business practice (that was one of the main factors in my decision to buy my 998c). And it helps sell new devices such as the 360 imaging transducer.
However they must also realize that by providing updates and features like HBPC that they now also assume a measure of responsibility to assure that moving to a new firmware doesn't leave their customers high and dry with a buggy version. Bootstrap capability is an effective tool to help assure a unit doesn't have to be sent back, or at the very least something to try first.
Straw
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Guys, I understand what you are asking for here and why. I see that a Wish List item has been entered for this, which is the way to get your request heard by those at JOI that make the decisions on what will or will not be added as a feature/function on future units.
Might I point out that the bootstrap method was only needed when things went wrong when attempting to load software into your unit, which does not happen that often. There are many, many Humminbird owners out there that update their units without mishap.
No, we do not make money on each unit that is sent into the Service Department. Depending on the unit model, what has to be done to service it and whether it is being fixed free of charge or not will determine this.
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No, we do not make money on each unit that is sent into the Service Department. Depending on the unit model, what has to be done to service it and whether it is being fixed free of charge or not will determine this.
I've heard about $ 75 dollars for reprogramming the chip non-bootable device on Linux. This service has a service department. Also do not forget about users around the world that send transport companies the instrument back to the factory. Shipping cost more than 100 $. Unfortunately the answer for service in Europe has not been received. I'm disappointed :-\
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Might I point out that the bootstrap method was only needed when things went wrong when attempting to load software into your unit, which does not happen that often. There are many, many Humminbird owners out there that update their units without mishap.
Well it seems lately that the forum is seeing a lot of postings on code issues. Not all of which take a bootstrap. But that does not take away from the fact that when it happens a bootstrap in the field is needed.
Something HBPC should provide.
If the unit software is changed there should be concurrent HBPC support.
Does HB not understand that their products are now computers and not just hardware devices.
Or maybe I should say JOI does not understand.
Chuck
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I can say from experience that Humminbird is not
out to get us, as far as unit repairs go.
I sent my 1197c in twice under warranty,
and once out of warranty. I was never
charged a penny.
If they were money mongers, they would have
found a way to charge me for the out of warranty
repair.
I think Humminbird is very fair in dealing with customers.
People need to realize that you need to take care of your
units. Send them a beat up unit that has scratches and dents
all over it and what does it show?
It shows the user doesn't take care of their stuff.
In that case, they might be shelling out some money to
get it fixed.
On the flip side, send them a unit that is in good shape, and shows
that the user takes pride in, and takes care of, and they might be a
little more reasonable on the charges.
Some people have ridiculous expectations. Remember the guy
that cleaned his screen with the wrong stuff, and permanently
damaged it? He got all bent out of shape because Humminbird
wouldn't fix it for nothing.
I think that Humminbird will weigh all the evidence for a repair,
then charge the appropriate amount.
Another thing to keep in mind. Get nasty with Humminbird customer
service and you might be charged more. :)
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Might I point out that the bootstrap method was only needed when things went wrong when attempting to load software into your unit, which does not happen that often. There are many, many Humminbird owners out there that update their units without mishap.
Greg--
Hopefully everyone realizes this... I certainly do, that is why I carefully look at the update information provided by HB BEFORE I apply any update to see what the update entails. If I see no direct benefit, for my use, I do not even attempt the update.
The fact that problems rarely occur is absolutely NOT a reason to not have the bootstrap option available. When that rare event happens, the person it happens to is very unhappy, with a very expensive unit that may have suddenly become useless to them at the time.
The fact that the bootstrap option was available previously and has been used successfully on prior units proves it's value.
Many people won't attempt a bootstrap, which I understand, but many will especially if they consider their unit has become unusable anyway, with the only other option to send the unit in.
Given the choice I would always try the bootstrap.... what would I have to loose? The unit would have to be sent back anyway without attempting bootstrap, but if bootstrapping worked it would save both me and HB time and money.
Straw
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I think that Humminbird will weigh all the evidence for a repair,
then charge the appropriate amount.
What say to that?
http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3150 (http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3150)
We also advise that you pay serious attention during the upload process to the unit that you do not lose power or have an interruption of any kind during that process when moving higher than 5.600. If you do have an interruption, the download will not complete and your only recourse will be to return your unit to our service department for the factory to do the upgrade to the newer version. This is not covered under warranty and has a $69.95 service charge.
Warned, then have the right to charge? A lot of people knew about this?
Unfortunately, I agree with this statement.
When a unit is returned to HB for repair HB repair makes money $$.
End of story.
Roddy
I think there are two ways out of this problem: The developer of the program makes quality firmware without bugs or a regular user still appears possible, as in the old units to overload the boot sector.
Greg--
The fact that problems rarely occur is absolutely NOT a reason to not have the bootstrap option available. When that rare event happens, the person it happens to is very unhappy, with a very expensive unit that may have suddenly become useless to them at the time.
Straw
+100
We need to understand the person who holds the device "brick", thousands of miles from the service center. I had, so I understand.
And even if this unit is worth the money. Chuck right, a lot of talk, but it was not enough. During this time in my country price of the device Humminbird 898с SI Combo has increased to 2628 U.S. dollars. Service has not improved either by 1 cent.
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When a unit is returned to HB for repair HB repair makes money $$.
End of story.
Roddy
The above statement is false.
My unit was returned to Humminbird out of warranty.
Humminbird didn't make a dime.
Everyone agrees that Humminbird should test the updates better.
If a unit needs repair because of an update that had errors, then
I think there should be no charge for that.
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Navionic--
Interesting link..... It shows that fixing failed update DOES indeed carry a charge from HB of 70 USD plus shipping. One does now begin to wonder WHY bootstrapping was removed as an option.... follow the money as it were....
I can now see people insisting that HB allow them to return units to service to have updates done under factory responsibility BEFORE they invest $2000 in things like 360 to work with units in the field.
They are going to have to offer something very tempting before I try to update MY unit in the future.
If I have a warranty issue then they will receive my unit with whatever firmware version is on it, they can do the update. If they request I update for troubleshooting, they can provide proof in writing that they take responsibility for the update possibly failing.
It is beginning to look like I may have just bought a simple fish-finder instead of the upgradable computer I thought I was buying....
Checking the return policy of my reseller now.... (think I may be 1 or 2 days past....).
Thanks for that link.
Remember this whole thread was started by a local dealer in the Netherlands, who was very familiar with updates, that was trying to add features he had paid for.....
He tried to apply an update that by many accounts on many forums is buggy but was pushed to sell new hardware...
Tried to roll back.....
Now the unit is bricked with no options but to send it somewhere else.
If that unit belongs to one of his customers he is quite likely on the hook for a replacement.
Straw
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Remember this whole thread was started by a local dealer in the Netherlands, who was very familiar with updates, that was trying to add features he had paid for.....
Straw
Straw--
This is not an isolated case. Raise your search at least in this forum. I am also familiar with the firmware update. Nevertheless turned his unit into a brick. I applied to many international service centers. All refused. Referring to the fact that they have no technology to reprogram the chip. Restore such a device can only Eufaula
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In the past I fixed a lot of units no service centre was able to fix them. It is no problem to reprogram this unit myself. But then there is no warranty anymore on this new unit. And at last but not at least, reprogramming the unit is against the copyrights of Humminbird!
Normally Humminbird has a great service, in the 8 years we sell Humminbird every unit has been repaired under warranty conditions even if they were older then 2 years.
Technautic (Distributor of The Netherlands) is going to send me a new unit. This is called SERVICE!!!
Guido Steijaert
Ribbink Nautic
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So you are saying that because a Customer failed to provide a stable power source to the unit while it was updating the software that we should fix it for free? These types or repairs often involve the replacement of a memory device on the PCB. If it is one of the newer models than this means a BGA type device has to be replaced – this is something that cannot be done by hand by us humans and requires a specific and expensive piece of equipment to do so. This does not always happen without damage to the PCB which would mean the replacement of the PCB itself. This all costs the company money which needs to be recouped from somewhere – like the person who caused the failure.
Daily we work on many units under warranty. That means that we do not charge anything for the services we provided. $0. Zero dollars.
Don’t forget that the bootstrap mode was not a catch-all. It does not work all of the time.
Now don’t get me wrong here; I would really like for us to have a way for any of our units to recover from a bad software update or if it just lost its mind. Whatever form this took would have to be 100% bullet-proof which means it would work in all circumstances. Maybe the solution is to ship each unit with a root-boot memory card or have one available for purchase for a minimal charge.
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Greg =>
You just need to restore the ability to flash the bootloader like old units. If unsuccessful reprogramming (even during power loss) is always possible to enter a mode reload (Power+ View) and reload device through the program HummPC
Now devices on Linux do not have this opportunity. So true that opportunity! Via a flash drive SD or through a re-flash program HummPC. Why these senseless talk who is right and who is wrong. Service in Europe will not be. It is already clear. Then do this for the sake of his loyal customers who overpaid for the European version of the fantastic pieces of money.
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Greg,
Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy with the service of Humminbird! I was the one who made a mistake with this particular unit. My fingers were faster then my mind. There was an older version of the software on the SD-card instead of pressing No, I pressed yes.
We both agree that if there is a solution with a kind of root-boot memory, no problem to pay for such a solution! I'm the first one who is going to buy.
In the Netherlands we are one of the biggest resellers. About your quote: "So you are saying that because a Customer failed to provide a stable power source to the unit while it was updating the software that we should fix it for free?" Service is very important for the product. Humminbird is loosing market in The Netherlands Lowrance is comming-up fast. When I'm able to promote Humminbird by giving good service, it is important to me. But I agree not everytime a customer makes a failure, it has to repaired for free.
Another easy solution could be to program in the lowest version a unit is is able to work with. So is the unit is not able to work with version lower then 5.180. And I want to update with 4.880. The unit simpy says: "Sorry not allowed!" and doesn't update.
Have a nice weekend.
Guido
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Another easy solution could be to program in the lowest version a unit is is able to work with. So is the unit is not able to work with version lower then 5.180. And I want to update with 4.880. The unit simpy says: "Sorry not allowed!" and doesn't update.
Guido
A good idea. But this has not yet met. Not for Garmin navigators and mobile phones. Although there can also be obtained bricks sometimes while rolling back to the old firmware.
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So you are saying that because a Customer failed to provide a stable power source to the unit while it was updating the software that we should fix it for free?
Greg--
No..... No...... No...... Anyone who would think that is not in touch with reality ....
These types or repairs often involve the replacement of a memory device on the PCB.
The key word here is "Often" as in not always..... So bootstrapping becomes a viable option, even if in only a few cases...
Don’t forget that the bootstrap mode was not a catch-all. It does not work all of the time.
Quite true and all should realize it as such..... But it is a tool that as a last ditch effort, could possibly save the day.... ::)
Now don’t get me wrong here; I would really like for us to have a way for any of our units to recover from a bad software update or if it just lost its mind. Whatever form this took would have to be 100% bullet-proof which means it would work in all circumstances.
No way..... 100% bullet proof????? That ain't ever going to happen..... HB's corporate lawyers probably wouldn't even respond to such a proposal ....... after they quit rolling on the floor laughing...:o We all might as well expect to see a bunch of honest politicians..... :-[
Straw
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Normally Humminbird has a great service, in the 8 years we sell Humminbird every unit has been repaired under warranty conditions even if they were older then 2 years.
Technautic (Distributor of The Netherlands) is going to send me a new unit. This is called SERVICE!!!
Guido Steijaert
Ribbink Nautic
Hi Guido
I can absolutely not confirm such a great service.
Fortunately for you in the Netherlands, for Germany is unfortunately Allroundmarin Vienna responsible and I am waiting now for 134 days on my unit.
mvh
Rüdiger
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As I mentioned before in this topic : "We are able to do a lot of things for our customers. With our experience mostly I don't need Humminbird. Our company (Ribbink Nautic) would like to become Humminbird Servicecenter in Europe. To be clear, servicecenter is not the same as distributor!"
Problems should be solved within 10 working days maximum!