Author Topic: 898c si compatibility with 360  (Read 34574 times)

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Offline Spd 135

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898c si compatibility with 360
« on: January 23, 2015, 01:22:28 PM »
I have searched the web and forums and cannot get a clear answer.  Is the 898c si compatible with the 360?  Mine does not have ethernet and I am reading it needs ethernet.  Then I read here people are using 360 with the 898.  I want to use side-scan to locate and object, then switch transducers to 360 when on site to survey the area.  In drownings with a last seen location I can pull to the site and deploy the 360.  I have worked with sector scanning sonar (mesotech) and the 360 seems to be a great shallow water (-50') option.  The price has gone down and I need to know if, and how, I can implement a 360 with my 898c si.  Mark


Offline sfw1960

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 01:57:52 PM »
The round screw on connector in the center of the back of your unit is the Ethernet connector - all 898's have Ethernet capability.

YES, it will work though a larger screen is more desirable for it's use.

Offline sfw1960

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 01:59:02 PM »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 02:18:20 PM »
That's great.  I didn't know about an ethernet connector other than the plastic kind used on a PC.  I will be purchasing one now that I know I can connect it.  On another note, is the trol motor mount submersible?  I just purchased one.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 02:45:43 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline mike1957

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 08:24:47 PM »
I am running it on an 898c and an 859hd di. I had to buy a cable for the 859 to adapt it from the round ethernet plug that comes with 360 to the hour glass shaped ethernet ($23 on amazon). Your 898 has the round ethernet so you will not have to buy an adapter. The trolling motor mount comes with it and it fit my min-kota. The mount is aluminum and is submersible although it does not sit in the water. i have no problem seeing it on the 898 or the 859 and have it ram mounted on my bow  which is about 4 feet from me when sitting in my deck chair fishing. I put a switch on mine so when i let my trolling motor down it automatically turns the power on the 360 that way i would not forget to turn it off and run my battery down (its not powered from your 898).
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Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 10:22:22 PM »
Mike, where are you in Louisiana?  When I asked about the trolling motor mount I meant the unit that mounts on the trolling motor, not the mount itself.  I don't need it to be retractable.  I have another way I want to mount it.  And if it is submersible I will set it up like a mesotech sector scanning sonar.  Mark Michaud Slidell La

Offline sfw1960

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2015, 10:59:46 PM »
What "unit" are you talking about to mount on the TM??
Give us some numbers, pics or more specific info please....

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2015, 11:07:25 PM »
This one can be raised and lowered with a switch.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HUMMINBIRD-TROLLING-MOTOR-IMAGING/1727710.uts?productVariantId=3715144&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=42-24244451-2&WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=03797783&rid=20 

This one mounts and it is raised and lowered with what it is mounted to.

http://www.thedigitaloasis.com/Humminbird-360-Imaging-As-360ssi_p_28851.html?utm_source=googlepla&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=408310-1&gclid=CLHJ78Tgq8MCFYYvgQodMXUAWw

Number 2 is less expensive and more to what I need.  I don't fish.   I look for vehicles, planes, bodies and such.  This is perfect for surveying after the area, or object, is located.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:50:59 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline sfw1960

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2015, 11:51:10 PM »
Bow or transom AS360's - yeah they'll work with an 898, and newest software update.

Offline mike1957

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 06:30:48 AM »
i am in north la. i do not know what a mesotech sector scanning sonar is so i am not sure what you are wanting to do.. The cables come into the top thru a rubber grommet so my guess would be water resistant not water proof. The power cable and the ethernet cable are about 4 feet long then you connect the supplied ethernet extention cable to it. you would have to seal the connector and the top of the 360 grommet to be sure. not sure on the transducer end either as far as water pressure at depth. i would like to know if the transducer is turned mechanically with an electric motor or electronically since i can hear it. It would be nice for some rich guy to slice one in half so we could see whats inside :)
Mike1957

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 11:27:20 AM »
Hey Spd 135, sounds like you and I may be interested in the same thing.  You wouldn't be using an Outland Tech 1000 would you?

I've not had an opportunity to see the 360 work in person, but from what I've been told it's range and depth are pretty limited.  Dropping the transducer deeper may help but then there is the issue of waterproofing the top of the metal tube and ethernet connection.

Please be sure to share whatever you may learn.  The Humminbird 360 imaging system is many times more affordable than anything else out there, if you are able to make it do what it is we're wanting to do.

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2015, 04:14:59 PM »
Big Kahuna, Outland Technology is a few hundred feet from my front porch.  Buddy is a good friend of mine.  He is the reason I have the Humminbird sonar.  I wish I had the money for an rov with sidescan.  I recently (November) worked on the search for a crashed airplane with 2 fatalities.  Both pilots were recovered as they were ejected.  The plane has not been recovered yet.  Using sidescan in December I believe I found the aircraft.  I went back this week and found all of the images nearby but could not recreate the plane.  I think it was further away from the gps as I am still learning how to get back to a point in open water.  Rivers and small lakes are easy...this not so much.  With the 360 I can set and survey the area around my gps and locate the imaqe again.  I cannot afford a sector scanning sonar altough I work with on occasionally here.  The 360 is a good option. 

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 04:28:17 PM »
Buddy Mayfield of Outland Technologies is well known and well respected in the ROV industry.  I've never met him in person but chatted with him a few years back.

Not entirely at the same level as an Outland 1000, the Deep Trekker DTG2 I have isn't a bad ROV for the price.  It's biggest advantage is that it is entirely self contained, so you don't need a generator or batteries to power it.  I wrote a review of it here:  http://www.nxtbook.com/naylor/ADCS/ADCS0214/index.php#/54

That's a nice image you posted, what was the depth?  I've pondered getting a 360 but the feedback I'm getting is that it is only really functional in shallow water (10 feet or less) which wouldn't work for me.  If you learn otherwise, be sure to let me know.  I'll probably get one too.

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 04:37:27 PM »
The image is around 15'  I will see how it works pretty soon as long as the winds lay down

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 07:41:39 PM »
The image is around 15'  I will see how it works pretty soon as long as the winds lay down

So you have a 360 already?  I'd be very interested to learn if it is possible to track / locate an ROV using the HB 360 unit at depths over 5' and hopefully up to 100' deep.  If this is possible, then it would become a very useful tool for what I do.

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2015, 09:00:46 PM »
I ordered a unit yesterday.  It should be here soon.  Humminbird has some good images (360) to about 20' showing trees and structure.  It shows fish much deeper, which is their main goal....fishermen.  As soon as it comes in I will get a chance to test it on the pearl river to depths of 80'.  I will let you know what I find.  I have hoped I can waterproof it and fix it to a tripod like a mesotech.  I built a fish and have 130' of cable using Humminbird 30' extensions.  Buddy (outland) scotchkast the ends for me and it works great.  No degredation of image.

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2015, 09:24:36 PM »
I ordered a unit yesterday.  It should be here soon.  Humminbird has some good images (360) to about 20' showing trees and structure.  It shows fish much deeper, which is their main goal....fishermen.  As soon as it comes in I will get a chance to test it on the pearl river to depths of 80'.  I will let you know what I find.  I have hoped I can waterproof it and fix it to a tripod like a mesotech.  I built a fish and have 130' of cable using Humminbird 30' extensions.  Buddy (outland) scotchkast the ends for me and it works great.  No degredation of image.

Interesting that fish ping better than structure, I wonder if it's their air bladders reflecting the sonar signal causing the better performance.

Yes, please report back what you learn.  One thing I noted with greater depth and 360 imaging is that as the depth increases the "shadow" directly under the transducer grows, so in 80' deep water, the shadow is probably pretty big.  Consequently, the 360 sonar would be more useful while approaching a target, rather than hovering directly over it. 

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2015, 08:38:55 AM »
Interesting that someone has taken the time to start a remote 360 sonar in the fashion of the regular deployed 360's.   let us know how it works...  You must plan on fishing in one spot for quite a while to put this on a tripod.   Chuck

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2015, 10:40:34 AM »
I think he's talking about turning the 360 into something like this:  http://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/C260E04C1091ECC0C12574E5004D73E9?OpenDocument


Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 10:58:43 AM »
@Spd 135 - If you decide to modify your 360 transducer for remote deployment, please post lots of pictures!  If you're successful, I may try to do the same except attach it to my ROV.  :)

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2015, 01:13:56 PM »
Yep, I was not going to mention Kongsberg but that is exactly what he wants to do..  Would be interesting to see how this works on an rov.  Most of the sector scans rely on being positional stable..
Chuck

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2015, 01:55:17 PM »
Yep, I was not going to mention Kongsberg but that is exactly what he wants to do..  Would be interesting to see how this works on an rov.  Most of the sector scans rely on being positional stable..
Chuck

Good point.  It might work if only a "pie slice" of the 360 degree sweep is used and the refresh/sweep rate is at its highest setting.  If not, then I would probably just mount it on a tripod such as the OP is suggesting.  Fingers crossed he's successful.  :)

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2015, 02:44:05 PM »
Yes, this will be an interesting thread.   Chuck

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2015, 03:34:56 PM »
If the intention is to lower the 360 transducer mounted on a tripod, you will also need someway of determining which way the "bow" end of the tranducer is pointing.  When mounted on the boat, that info is provided by the GPS / Compass, but when the 360 transducer is independent of the boat you'll have to come up with some other way of determining it.

Another factor to consider is voltage drop in the power lines to the 360 transducer.  If you're sending it 80 feet deep, that could cause issues unless you use large enough gauge wire.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2015, 02:48:16 AM »
360 will work without the AS GPS HS antenna connected ...(kosmo has been running his 360 without the AS GPS HS antenna or a 2d xducer for depth) ...

The AS GPS HS antenna is only used for accurate marking of waypoints on the 360 view ...

The 360 pod xducer itself has orientation instructions to determine which way to "point" the pod as forward ...



Rickie
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 02:51:40 AM by rnvinc »

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2015, 08:06:18 AM »
The locater works on the surface but how will you orient it under water.  I think this will be a good tool if SPD 135 can figure out some of the surface mount requirements.  Chuck

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2015, 10:25:32 AM »
The locater works on the surface but how will you orient it under water.  I think this will be a good tool if SPD 135 can figure out some of the surface mount requirements.  Chuck

Right, and also manage to get the transducer plus connections water-tight enough for deeper depths than what they were originally designed for.  Fortunately for Spd 135 he's got an expert on underwater robotics right next door (ie. Buddy Mayfield). 

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 10:05:47 AM »
On the mesotech (tripod) I MacGyvered a simple way to know your attitude relative to the boat.  I tied a string to the foot, on one of the tripod legs.  I placed a drink bottle at the end of the string so that it sits in front of the "transducer".  A rope is placed on the other leg to make sure the bottle faces the same direct as the boat.  Of course, this was in shallow water.  In deeper water a line could extend from the bottle to a float on the surface to create the same effect.

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2015, 10:54:01 AM »
Did you fabricate your own tripod?  Looking at the Mesotech tripod it looks as though they've made theirs from stainless steel tubing and "bimini" style fittings (like here:  http://www.suncorstainless.com/railing-bimini ).

I'm trying to picture how your "soda bottle on a string" might work at greater depths.  It'll be interesting to hear how it works out.

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2015, 03:31:46 PM »
I don't own a mesotech but, sometimes, work with a guy who owns one.  He had one fabricated.ila_rendered

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2015, 08:51:20 AM »
From another thread:

The 898 is the only thing in the box.  It seems to work as it should. 

Now......next question:  I have to assume that the 360 unit itself is waterproof.  I also have to think the "pipe" that extends up from the actual 360 unit is attached beyond the place that it is waterproofed as there is a grommet at the top where the wire go to the unit.  Is there any data showing this to be accurate and at what depth is the 360 waterproof?  I ask because I would like to be able to lower the unit as is done with a sector scanning sonar.  The one downside of a surface mounted 360 is the cone below the unit gets quite large as depths get greater and of course the further the sonar is from a target the less chance of showing an image.  For fishing this is not a problem.  I will be using my unit for salvage and location of drowning victims.  If the unit is not waterproofed I will have a canister built to seal it as we do in our cave diving lights.  If this works, either way, this will blow the game open for SAR operations putting a sector scanning sonar in reach of public safety people. 

In Laurel River Lake KY I have been searching for a man in 100'+ water and in 40 degree temps below 50'.  This man went missing in 2012 and was given up on due to knowledge, experience and resources with safety issues as the main concern.  I put a team together and using cadaver dogs (multiple) we believe we have narrowed a location.  A few weeks ago, after many dives throughout last year, a deep section was scanned using sector scanning sonar.  The result was a very promising target, in the area we were searching, but where we probably would not have located.  It measures 6' x 2'.  Side Scan was used early on, but due to a standing forest on the bottom, the result did not produce anything to work with.

Being able to adapt a 360 unit to be deployed at depth is tantamount to being able to find that needle in a haystack.  I hope this can be done as it will enhance the search and recovery efforts and bring missing loved ones home where they belong.  Mark Michaud


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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2015, 10:08:46 AM »
My fingers are crossed that you'll be successful with the HB 360 unit, but my suspicions are that the transducer is designed for 10' or less depth.  The SI transducers are simple, potted piezo's which are nearly impervious to the greater depths people are using them at.  But that 360 transducer is a different bird entirely.  It's likely got a servo motor and a large air void for the transducer to rotate inside.  If I'm right, that void or the gaskets could implode at 100+ foot depth.  Rather than building an external housing for the transducer, you might be able to fill the transducer's void with a compensating fluid (such as mineral oil or non-toxic radiator coolant).  That's one method typically used to increase ROV thruster motor depth ratings.

Too bad the 360 transducer units aren't available alone or the price cheaper.  At over $1K it's a pretty expensive experiment if it fails. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:13:31 AM by bigkahuna »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2015, 10:21:28 AM »
I would like to get my hands on a non functional unit and put it in a pressure pot.  If I build a clear canister the pressure would be removed but would the sound waves penetrate, let's say, lexan?  The unit is pretty rigid, so if I had to build a can to capture it I could seal it with an o-ring on the top "round" portion that attaches to the lower "V shaped" portion.  At 100' you are only talking about 60 psi.  Is that enough to harm the unit?  That is the question.

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2015, 10:58:24 AM »
I would like to get my hands on a non functional unit and put it in a pressure pot.  If I build a clear canister the pressure would be removed but would the sound waves penetrate, let's say, lexan?  The unit is pretty rigid, so if I had to build a can to capture it I could seal it with an o-ring on the top "round" portion that attaches to the lower "V shaped" portion.  At 100' you are only talking about 60 psi.  Is that enough to harm the unit?  That is the question.


I'm also thinking that having two housings instead of one could also modify the sound in some way?  Remember sound waves can be reflected and bent when meeting a change in density.  What effect that may have on the resulting sonar image is another question to consider.  The same could be true for filling the transducer housing with a fluid.

Too bad 360 transducers aren't $50 a pop, it would be fun project.  ;)

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2015, 11:58:21 AM »
I think I read a post by Bill Carson some time back that the 360 pod already has some type of fluid in it ...(As I recall the query was about a user's experience with a leak of something coming out of the pod) ...

Greg may be able to confirm ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 11:59:41 AM by rnvinc »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2015, 12:47:40 PM »
a 360 sub-forum would be nice so that information would be more easily accessable.

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2015, 02:01:14 PM »
Yes, there is a fluid in the transducer pod of the 360 accessories.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2015, 02:11:10 PM »
Yes, there is a fluid in the transducer pod of the 360 accessories.


Well that's encouraging (and also very smart thinking on HB's part)!  Can you share what kind of liquid it is?  Or the transducer's depth rating?

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2015, 03:13:06 PM »
No help here bigkakuna  as I don't think that I can share the kind of fluid (I'm checking on this) and as far as the transducer's depth rating I would guess 1 meter.  Again, I am not aware of any deeper tests being performed as the intention was to install on a boat and not drop down to the murky depths...
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2015, 03:24:08 PM »
No help here bigkakuna  as I don't think that I can share the kind of fluid (I'm checking on this) and as far as the transducer's depth rating I would guess 1 meter.  Again, I am not aware of any deeper tests being performed as the intention was to install on a boat and not drop down to the murky depths...

Thanks Greg.  Chances are the fluid is one of the two I mentioned (or something similar).  Fluid filled is really the smart way to go with a unit like that.  Gotta say I'm impressed that HB went that way.  Some companies would have taken a cheaper route.  Just goes to show how "on the ball" your engineers are.

I suspect that unit will survive deeper than 1 meter, but how much deeper will cost someone $1K to find out.  ;)

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2015, 03:40:46 PM »
"Thanks Greg.  Chances are the fluid is one of the two I mentioned (or something similar).  Fluid filled is really the smart way to go with a unit like that.  Gotta say I'm impressed that HB went that way.  Some companies would have taken a cheaper route.  Just goes to show how "on the ball" your engineers are.

I suspect that unit will survive deeper than 1 meter, but how much deeper will cost someone $1K to find out.  ;)"

Unless someone wants to donate a non functioning unit, or test it themselves (hint hint)

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2015, 11:03:14 PM »
Went to a place that I know has a vehicle.  Looks like there may be another.  I had to figure out how to get rid of the waypoint dots from previous sidescan and then I settled on the blue as I see the best with that and then inverse.  This is gonna be a good add after locating and imaging with side scan you can follow up with this and survey all the way around the target for a clear image.  I still hope to find out what it can take as far as depth.

[ Specified attachment is not available ]
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 11:05:52 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline bigkahuna

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »
Nice image(s).  Looking forward to your next report.  ;)

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2015, 08:28:29 PM »
The tripod thing didn't seem to work as good as a boat mount below the surface.  I had the unit at 7' (off of the bottom) but it doesn't seem to make clear images.  Mounted on the front and just below the boat seems to work great.  You can also switch to side-scan while moving and the images are very clean.ila_renderedila_renderedila_rendered
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:40:15 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2015, 08:34:15 PM »
1st image is an alligator gar.  2nd image is 360 of boat launch.  3rd image is a tree on the bottom.  4th image is unknown. 
 ila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedimages
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:41:10 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2015, 08:39:29 PM »
all images are of a diver on a long hose (no scuba bottle) acting as a body.  When you have sheet pilings, a dam or other structure where side-scan (movement) is not practical, this works great as it is stationary.
ila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_renderedila_rendered
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:43:18 PM by Spd 135 »

Offline Spd 135

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Re: 898c si compatibility with 360
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2015, 06:40:23 PM »
Last week I dropped my 360 to 60' with no issues.  I located the missing man I have been searching for in Kentucky.  He is in a tree in 110'.  I followed up with video.  I am headed back next week to recover his remains.  I am posting a few sonar images with permission from the family.

Image 1 Brian Abbott (Nautilus Marine Group) image with his konsberg mesotech
Image 2 enlarged image of same
Image 3 my image showing diver, tree and target
Image 4 enlarged diver
Image 5 enlarged target

The image of the target matches the sonar image.

ila_rendered
ila_rendered
ila_rendered
ila_rendered
ila_rendered


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