Topic: NEW UPDATE Re: MAJOR UPDATE!!!! - (No Longer) A little disappointed

[Whistler]

Well, I've had my Helix 12 Mega SI G2N installed and running for nearly two months now.  And I must say, I'm a little disappointed.  Figured I'd post my thoughts and see what others have to say or might suggest.

First off, this unit replaced the 1199 which was at my console and is now at the bow.  Overall I've been really happy with the 1198 and 1199 units that I had before I got the Helix 12.

Let me start by laying out what I like about it

Likes:
-New screen is really bright and wide.  No dead pixels!
-New transducer has a dedicated DI element.  One of the main reasons I bought it
-I've got some new screen options like chart + sonar and side stacked - Thumbs up!
-The aesthetics - This is a good looking unit
-Simpler connections - 1 plug connects everything!
-Quicker scrolling with the Dpad
-Mega SI seems to generate clearer images
-Standby power feature - Awesome!
-#11 on the SI/DI Color palette
- The new plug/cable collector.  Really easy to connect


Dislikes:
-Medium/High frequency sonar setting seems to create very blocky sonar returns
-Down imaging...just doesn't seem to produce good clear images.  With the dedicated DI element I expected much, much better and hoped it would be on par with competitors, but it just isn't.  This was my main reasoning for purchase and my biggest disappointment
-Shoddy software releases - This has been an issue for a long time, but as an IT professional, I'm really disappointed at how poor the QA seems to be on software releases.  I don't expect things to be perfect, but some things just shouldn't be missed.
-Weight of the unit.  This thing is twice the weight of my 1199 I'd guess.  Be extremely careful when putting the unit in the Gimble mount.  If you take your hands off of it, it will rotate and fall out of the Gimble mount before you can cinch the thumb screws down
-#1 on the SI/DI color palette...what did you do to my blue?  its not the same. Spent the last two days using the "new" blue.  I think I actually may like it better now that I've spent more time with it.
-Loss of bottom in soft bottom, shallow water and telling me the water is twice the actual depth especially in shallow water.  I've tried tweaking the sensitivity but no luck
-In shallow water, on the left SI side, the bottom edge isn't crisp.  I'm thinking this is likely a problem with the left SI element placement/angle inside of the transducer.  I've probably got a weak lobe in the beam from an improperly aligned element and Humminbird will likely replace the transducer but I haven't reached out to them yet on that.

I'm sure there are some other good things I forgot about and some other bad things.  But really, my main disappointment is with the DI.  I'm really disappointed in that.


Just thought I'd share and see what others experience has been.

-jason

P.S. - Here is a screen shot of the left side "softness" I mentioned above.

[Bob B]

Can you post some images of the DI you are getting ..... most people have been very happy with it.

[Mark Saikaley]

I will add to the list of likes and dislikes, otherwise I concur or I have something new or a different opinion (I have a 997 SI and its still fully installed on the boat)

Likes
mega Side imaging much improved. I love it My images match the demos
down imagine much improved. I didn't used to see any vegetation such as weeds but now I do and I see more detail on structure such as branches etc. Generally Im getting images like the demos. Its not consistent but much better.  I find the side imaging so good that I use that more than the down imaging so far
I concur with the rest. of the likes
Like the ipilot link and one of the main reasons I upgraded, however  see dislike for issues with it)

Dislikes
yes the blue isn't as nice. I pretty much just use the default amber and I don't thin any other colours compare in detail. I preferred the amber on the 997 also however
reliability is an issue . Im getting freezing and am having issues with my zero lines cards not updating (ie not able to store data on them) as they become corrupted. 2 have become useless now just from using it in the unit and nothing else. Im calling support on this tomorrow
this impacts my desire to use the newly created charts with ipilot as we have to chart lakes in Canada to be able to follow contours since Lakemaster doesnt have Canada Lakes for most of the country and not my area. So I really need the mapping to work not to mentions the several hundred dollars and hours Ive invested in trying to create the maps and encountering the critical errors.

I think Im having the same issue you described with the left side of the side imaging

My experience and ad an IT expert as well says this product was not yet ready for production and is still in beta

Im not used to the chirp as I get lots of blobs and not the fish arches I used to get. Also the CHIRP seems to be messing up on reading the bottom as its detecting my downrigger balls as bottom instead most of the time regardless of the depth of the DR or bottom depth or sensitivity. When I use my 997 I aways get the bottom vs the dr balls.

I hadn't turned off the chirp at the time as I didn't come across that switch on the menu when I was looking for it but its the only thing I can think of unless its the software. Its not the transducer as I tried my 2d high speed xducer as well on both the Helix and the 997 and the 997 read bottom with its original xducer and the high speed whereas the helix didn't read the bottom with its original or the 2d  and returns the down rigger depths instead. So its the units not the xducer

[Mark Saikaley]

Here are some down image shots with my Helix 10 Mega without any special settings. I included some side image shots of the same structures for perspective, there are two different structures scanned. Im not sure what more one wants from down images. I m pretty blown away actually

[Whistler]

Hey Marknfish.  Those DI images look pretty good.  Do you happen to have any shots of the same fish on both DI and SI at the same time?  The reason I ask, is I was out this weekend and found a very large school of large carp and gar.  I could see them very well on SI including many fish in the water column.  The fish were so large and the SI image so clear, that in many cases I could see their fins in their shadow.  They were right under me so I should have been able to see them on DI.  So I quickly switched to a DI view to see how they they looked and I could basically see nothing.  I mean I could see the bottom, but almost nothing above the bottom - so no fish in DI view.

Again, this is why I've said I'm disappointed in the DI capabilities.  I'm hoping I just have a defective transducer but I'm not sure at this point.  I have started a conversion with HB and they are suggesting that I remove the MSIDB Y splitter in the event it's bad.  I'll do that next time out to see if there is any difference.  If not, I'm hoping to get another transducer from them.

[Mark Saikaley]

I  will have to take a look at what ive taken pics of and let you know. I've mostly been comparing structure and given i owned my 997csi since 2009 i am able to compare mentally between  the old and new so i see huge improvements betwen the prior technology. Thats what i was making my comments in regard to. I do often change views when im markig fish and i will say in general however that im marking the same fish in 2d side and down imaging.  What i see in the si and di varies at depths . Sometimes i see fish shapes and great bottom detail and other times i just see white dots and shapes on di and ai whre im marking fish in 2d.  It give me the impression that the software  which interprets the di and si returns is different depebding on the depths and other characteristics. Ie different code is used for different depths. S etimes im getting images that look as though someone has taken a photo whole sitting on the bottom and other times its like looking down from the surface and less detail. Same with si.  So you can see  differwnt effects and displays depending on which code kicks in to process and produce the images.  I have no idea if this is what is happening  but it sure seems like more advanced  interpretation as occurrong in some displays than in others. I imagine as they write more software more images will be picture like. 

I did find a youtube tutorial on determining the proper transducer angle where your trollig /scanning speed is followed and you determine  the pitch of your boat at that speed and then set the angle of the transducer to be parallel to level when ur boat is at that pitch  and i believe you will get better inages more often. I think tyat this was my result however  i had done this very soon after my initual onstallation so i can only speak for the recommended installation more than prior to the adjustmebt as i dont much before samplig. As for the left side of side imaging not being as good as the right side im getting that effect as well but my xducer is in the right side and i find my outboard i terferes with the signal so i need to use the tilt compared to my prior xducer . I had no i interference before so this xducer is longer  plus i added a mounting board whih added 1 inch. But even once i tilt the motor out of the way the left side isnt as good. Another factor is my boat slightly tilts to the right side when im alobe in the boat and traveling slowto to weight imbalance  vs when i have passengers and can balance the boat.  This occured this yr as i upgraded to 24 volt and now have an additional heavy agm battery on the starboard side plus  a 3 bank minkota charger.

Yes even when fairly level i think my left side xducer is slightly less effective but i have other priorities to correct as im still waiting for humminbird to replace my corrupted zero lines card.  Overall between the 2d chirp and the various imaging views im having a much better time than ever marking fish and reading structure and ecen when usig nottom nouncers avoiding snags etc as im seeing so much detail. Its so helpful if i get snagged on hot spt areas to see what the problems are . Like im seeing buried cables for exampke where im always getting caught and can know how to get unsnagged or avoud and bounce over the areas etc.  The main thing not to lose site of is while nice detail and pucs are great my primary goal is to have reliable interprataion of structure and fish and im seeing bait and game fish like never before with extreme confidence of what im seeing and structures and its resulting in fising areas wth extreme confidence im in the right area for the target fish and putting them in my boat.  And finding fish.  Im going to a lake and finding better spots than the locals even.  My most recent outing  i caught my best fish in an area tgat was so unlikely but was marking the most fish while on route to tge place where the local floatilly was.  The helics cinvinced me to drop a line to see what was going on and i hit the jackpot  but i left the area and fished where all the locals were. I realized that while i had success in the go to hole the otger area was much better and my helix was more reliable than the people who knew the lake the best. You cant beat that. From now on i listen to my helix

[Whistler]

Just thought I'd provide another update for anyone interested.

I spoke with Humminbird support and they were able to send me another transducer to try (Humminbird support is awesome).  Unfortunately, I saw exactly the same results.  So I double checked to make sure nothing on the boat or mounting location (center-line of the boat on the hole-shot plate) could be causing this and confirmed that there is nothing that could be causing the issue by blocking the beam.  Additionally, since my last update I was out with a buddy of mine who has a pair of 10" G2N at his console and I saw the same softness on the left side of the his SI image.  That is 3 separate transducers and two different G2N units that display this behavior and in each case it is the left side. 

Does anyone think it is possible that somehow the transducer cable, which enters the transducer on the left rear side, is somehow causing this?  I realize tranducer/piezo creates a mechanical sound from the electrical pulse travelling on the cable.  So I don't know how that could cause this, but it seems strange that 3 transducers and both units across two different boats show this same behavior.  Oh, there is one other thing I have in common with my buddy's setup.  He too, has his transducer mounted on his hole-shot plate.

In regard to my previous complaints about DI, further use of down imaging with the replacement dedicated transducer and on my buddy's setup also showed similar results as previously reported.  It almost seems to me like the frequency of the down imaging pings/pulses must be substantially lower than the side scan pings which I think is resulting in a loss of fidelity and difficulty displaying small targets like fish.  I seem to remember hearing that Lowrance struggles/struggled with similar issues except their SI suffers instead of DI.  Maybe Humminbird just decided to sacrifice their DI instead of the SI?

Sure would be interested to see other thoughts on this.

[rnvinc]

Have you experimented with shutting off the CHIRP imaging and trying the fixed frequency imaging ...??

Maybe the issue is a CHIRP thing  ...

Rickie

[Whistler]

Just to be clear, are you talking about trying this on SI, DI, or both?  I've definitely tried this on DI in an attempt to improve DI images and haven't really seen any improvement, but I don't think I have paid particular attention to the the soft edge while doing so. 

Anyway, I'll be sure to pay particular attention to this next time out.  I don't really know why/if that could cause this but who knows.

I would be really, really, interested to see peoples images of the same fish from both down an side views on these new Mega G2N units.  I'm really starting to become convinced that there is much being missed by DI images that I and everyone else are getting.

[Mark Saikaley]

Sorry forgot about this request. I may have some to upload. I sis locate some pickerel anove a rock structure and boated two keepers. I did save an image  or two but not sure if i had ssi or di or both displayed at the time. I think i had di whicg shows white specs being the pickeral but not sure if theres a ccomparative view. Im wondering what you are talki g abiut when u express disappointment  in the left side si. Do u see issues wth the si views i posted? I do have some left side isues but not always . Can u pist inages of what you are talking about so i can see if its the same thing i am experiencing on occasion. Its just when the bottom is mistly flat and little of know structure where i have a poor left side btw and probably larger ranges

I  will have to take a look at what ive taken pics of and let you know. I've mostly been comparing structure and given i owned my 997csi since 2009 i am able to compare mentally between  the old and new so i see huge improvements betwen the prior technology. Thats what i was making my comments in regard to. I do often change views when im markig fish and i will say in general however that im marking the same fish in 2d side and down imaging.  What i see in the si and di varies at depths . Sometimes i see fish shapes and great bottom detail and other times i just see white dots and shapes on di and ai whre im marking fish in 2d.  It give me the impression that the software  which interprets the di and si returns is different depebding on the depths and other characteristics. Ie different code is used for different depths. S etimes im getting images that look as though someone has taken a photo whole sitting on the bottom and other times its like looking down from the surface and less detail. Same with si.  So you can see  differwnt effects and displays depending on which code kicks in to process and produce the images.  I have no idea if this is what is happening  but it sure seems like more advanced  interpretation as occurrong in some displays than in others. I imagine as they write more software more images will be picture like. 

I did find a youtube tutorial on determining the proper transducer angle where your trollig /scanning speed is followed and you determine  the pitch of your boat at that speed and then set the angle of the transducer to be parallel to level when ur boat is at that pitch  and i believe you will get better inages more often. I think tyat this was my result however  i had done this very soon after my initual onstallation so i can only speak for the recommended installation more than prior to the adjustmebt as i dont much before samplig. As for the left side of side imaging not being as good as the right side im getting that effect as well but my xducer is in the right side and i find my outboard i terferes with the signal so i need to use the tilt compared to my prior xducer . I had no i interference before so this xducer is longer  plus i added a mounting board whih added 1 inch. But even once i tilt the motor out of the way the left side isnt as good. Another factor is my boat slightly tilts to the right side when im alobe in the boat and traveling slowto to weight imbalance  vs when i have passengers and can balance the boat.  This occured this yr as i upgraded to 24 volt and now have an additional heavy agm battery on the starboard side plus  a 3 bank minkota charger.

Yes even when fairly level i think my left side xducer is slightly less effective but i have other priorities to correct as im still waiting for humminbird to replace my corrupted zero lines card.  Overall between the 2d chirp and the various imaging views im having a much better time than ever marking fish and reading structure and ecen when usig nottom nouncers avoiding snags etc as im seeing so much detail. Its so helpful if i get snagged on hot spt areas to see what the problems are . Like im seeing buried cables for exampke where im always getting caught and can know how to get unsnagged or avoud and bounce over the areas etc.  The main thing not to lose site of is while nice detail and pucs are great my primary goal is to have reliable interprataion of structure and fish and im seeing bait and game fish like never before with extreme confidence of what im seeing and structures and its resulting in fising areas wth extreme confidence im in the right area for the target fish and putting them in my boat.  And finding fish.  Im going to a lake and finding better spots than the locals even.  My most recent outing  i caught my best fish in an area tgat was so unlikely but was marking the most fish while on route to tge place where the local floatilly was.  The helics cinvinced me to drop a line to see what was going on and i hit the jackpot  but i left the area and fished where all the locals were. I realized that while i had success in the go to hole the otger area was much better and my helix was more reliable than the people who knew the lake the best. You cant beat that. From now on i listen to my helix

[Whistler]

I will definitely be interested in seeing your DI images of fish.  I also find it interesting, and this seems to correlate to what I am seeing, that you are seeing pickerel (long slender fish, typically) as dots or specs on DI.  Pickerel are generally going to be much longer than bass.  And if a long fish shows up as a dot/spec on DI then a bass may not show at all.  Of course, this depends somewhat on the orientation of the fish as it pertains to the direction the boat is traveling.  This also leads me to believe that the DI ping interval must be substantially less frequent than the SI ping interval.  Especially if the SI shows the fish as longer than the DI.  Unless there is severe image compression taking place with DI.

Regarding the SI, I updated the image in my original post to show the softness on the left side.  That is really the only disappointment I have with SI.  This softness is only present at intermediate depths (between 5-15 ft or so) and only on the left side.  I really don't know that the softness is causing me to miss anything, but I'm concerned it may be.  Unfortunately, there is really no way to know.  I do know, however, that this softness was not present on my 1198 or 1199.

[Mark Saikaley]

Here are some pictures of wallleye from this weekend. Ping 111 in 2d is a fish on my line under the boat that I am fighting. Its was a 22 inch walleye

[Whistler]

Thanks for all those images marknfish.  Some of those DI images with fish look decent and more in-line with what I expect to see, but one thing I notice right off the bat is how low your boat speed is in most pics.  I'm typically trying to use DI at 3-4 mph.  Maybe that is why I'm not seeing much.  Your last image (at 5.6 mph) is closer to what I typically see on DI.  So, in mind, that pretty much confirms that the ping rate for DI must be quite low.  Otherwise, I'd think a 22 inch fish would appear much longer on the DI image.

Though it isn't what I had hopped for, at least this has helped me to understand what to expect from Humminbird DI.    At least now I know to slow way down when trying to positively identify fish on DI.  Next time out I'll be sure to do just that and try to post my results.



Is there anyone here on the boards who is brave enough to put a scope on the SI and DI leads to try and figure out what the difference in ping rate is between the two?

[Mark Saikaley]

I believe these are catfish. As i was saying you get differebt types of detail depending on the situation.  Personally i dont tbink your expectations are realistic.  This tech ology is amazing and always advancing and what you are getting for your money if you are disappointed

[Mark Saikaley]

I might add that this is in water where  you cane see beyond 2 feet visability  from the surface where there is more lightso even if you were scuba diving or had a camera you would bit be able to see these fish like this in any form either white dots or outline. Think about it

[Whistler]

I'm not sure what you meant by your last two posts, but I think my expectations are pretty reasonable.  In fact, I agree that the current technology (along with the prior generations) is capable of showing amazing detail.  Heck, I've got images that I've personally taken on my Helix 12 G2N that show fins on the fish.  It's incredible.  My only argument is that, if that kind of detail is achievable on SI, there is no technological reason that DI shouldn't be able to produce similar images of fish.  But as of right now, it doesn't seem to be anywhere close to that.  A spec or dot isn't remotely close to showing fins on a fish. 

Now I don't need enough DI detail to see fins (though that would be awesome), but I do need to know that I'm seeing a fish and not a leaf suspended in the water.  Or that I'm seeing a bass and not a bluegill or crappie.  Again, I think at least in my case, it has a lot to do with my boat speed and what I suspect is a reduced DI ping rate vs. SI.  Other factors, like the fish's orientation with respect to the travel direction of my boat can affect both DI and SI images, but my SI images  of fish are generally really good so this seems to be a DI problem only.  Regardless, I'm going to try slowing way down when using DI on places where I see fish on SI and see if that enhances the DI images.  Then I'll report back.

[rnvinc]

As an experiment, you might try setting the Connected Transducer selection under the Sonar tab to "DI + 83/200"  ...

While this will most likely make the CHIRP menus unavailable (and unusable) - it should shut off the SI transmitters allowing more frequent pings to the DI channel  ...

I would think that the MEGA 1200kHz DI will also not be available - the 455kHz and 800kHz fixed frequency imaging should still be available  ...

Rickie

[Mark Saikaley]

I dont see samples on the hb website of down images  with good fish images. Only side image. The down image views i displayed showed bottom and structure which exceed my expectations but there were not any fish to show. That rock structure in my post which shows si di and 2d views showed fish holding above it on a previous outig but they were white dots. I think they apeared as white dots on si as well. I dont know why there would be so much detail for the rock structure and white dpts or specs for a healthy school of walleye, but this sould be somethig im sure the right person at hb could answer. I just summed it up as software not yet been developed to better interpret those markings. Thats just my guess. Seee of my initial theories above. What i do know is i was extremely disappointed with si and di on my original 997csi for the si and di.  For how much extra the si cost me i got nothig close to the demo mode for any view and never received ant benefit. My g2n now gives me what i saw in the demos so thats all i hope for is to see what was advertized. Sure i would love more but i feel this time i got wgat i paid for where after my first experience i was feeling i should not spend money on si or di because i never saw any benefit . Now im enjoying it. But it does not always have dramatic images. Honestly im spending most of my time fiahing and catching fish  and have not been spending a lot of time tinkering with settings and maximising the views. The i havent been in waters where there is a lit of structure holding fish to study the fish where there are good images of astructure. I did see a lot of di with fish dots. I was going slow as in 1 mph gice or take .3

[Whistler]

As an experiment, you might try setting the Connected Transducer selection under the Sonar tab to "DI + 83/200"  ...

That is a really good idea Rickie.  I never thought about configuring the unit to think it only had a DI transducer connected.

Have you heard anything about the DI ping rate/interval vs the SI ping rate/interval that would explain what I'm seeing on the DI side?  I'm just curious if it has been confirmed that SI pinging occurs more frequently than DI.  Its obviously only a guess from me at this point but it would be nice to know if it is the case and if there is  a published ratio (like 2 SI pings for every 1 DI ping, etc.).

Marknfish - I've never owned a xx7 series unit but I do own 798, 1198, and 1199 series units.  Between the x7 and x8/x9 units I think the biggest difference was in how they are back-lit (Fluorescent vs LED).  But my SI images on my 798,1198, and 1199 series units were always very good so I'm kinda surprised you weren't able to get good images out of the 997.  Having said that, there is no question that the Helix 12 Mega G2N produces even better SI images than my 1198 and 1199 can.  But DI has always been a weak spot.

[Mark Saikaley]

Ive spoken with several who said they had seen better images with si or di than mine and i tried everything. But as far as i recall they all had at least  the 998 series ( or above vs the 7 series. I never saw weed beds for example . On a  flooded man made lake i did  turn  up sensitivity on di to max and saw below a forest of cut tree stumps from the bottom that were cut off about 7 get below surface  that were only barely visible at max intensity. So it is wasnt on bottom and sosid bottom or rock and or at least thicker than a 8 inch tree trunk the screen was empty. It dis show botto. Fairly well in di but not much else. Sometimes i saw bait balls and other structure but hary ever detail. Im almost always trolling at leas than 1mph so id think that would  compensate for slower ping rate. Hoping for better summer  next yr and a chance to experiment more and see the extwnt of capabilities. I still believe its more a software updates issue for them to provide better interpretations of the returns for di. Some of the white spots are pretty big and at close enough range that i think the sonar is getting as much info as the si for the same fish. But let us know if u find any settings that help

[rnvinc]

That is a really good idea Rickie.  I never thought about configuring the unit to think it only had a DI transducer connected.

Have you heard anything about the DI ping rate/interval vs the SI ping rate/interval that would explain what I'm seeing on the DI side?  I'm just curious if it has been confirmed that SI pinging occurs more frequently than DI.  Its obviously only a guess from me at this point but it would be nice to know if it is the case and if there is  a published ratio (like 2 SI pings for every 1 DI ping, etc.)

Previous core series SI units (with blended DI) used an alternating ping sequence  ...(200/left si/right si/83/left si/right si/repeat  ...
-----

Here is the most recent info I have from HB on the SI units with a dedicated DI piezo  ...

For units that have the DI element, a DI ping may occur in parallel with one of the SI pings or it may have before or after (in series with) the SI Pings.
 
The sequence could be articulated like this:
HELIX:
·         200/83 kHz on:
o   Jigging mode on = 200 kHz, Imaging Beams, 83 kHz, repeat
o   Jigging mode off = 200 kHz, Imaging Beams, 83 kHz, Imaging Beams, repeat
·         200 kHz only:
o   Jigging mode on = 200 kHz, Imaging Beams, repeat
o   Jigging mode off = Same sequence as Jigging Mode on.
 
 
SOLIX/ONIX:
·         200/83 kHz on:
o   200 kHz, Imaging Beams, 83 kHz, repeat
·         200 kHz only:
o   200 kHz, Imaging Beams, repeat

I did ask a follow up question as to how the unit decides if the DI ping is in sequence with or parallel to to the SI ping  ...

The answer was  ... It's based on how the individual unit processes the data (which sounds kinda vague to me)  ...

Rickie

[Whistler]

Thanks Rickie you are a wealth of knowlege!  You are my new best friend as I love the technical details so keep them coming.

If I understand you correctly, and based on the vague info HB provided to your follow up question, when you say "imaging beams" does that mean:

For Parallel Sequence:
LeftSI+RightSI+DI (i.e. all 3 simultaniously)

Fore Series Sequence:
LeftSI+RightSI then DI (i.e. simultaneous side beams then down beam)


Or does it mean:

For Parallel Sequence:
LeftSI+DI then RightSI (i.e. one of the side beams and DI simultaneously then the other side beam)

For Series Sequence:
LeftSI then RightSI then DI (i.e. either left beam or right beam or DI beam)

[Mark Saikaley]

It soubds to me as though hb's vague reply may mean that the more high end  the unit the more parallel or faster the processing? And they didnt want to have to get into detailing every unit and maybe they would have had to go research it hemselves. I.e.  it would not be un reasonable to expect that you are getting more than just increased screen size the higher you go in models but also increased performance with increase in $$$. Just a guess as opposed to their reply aalso sounding like one helix 10 migh behave one way and aniyher helix 10 with same version sw behaves another. If that were the case then we might be talking AI units lol

Im assuming Rickie when you say in parallel all imaging ping occur at the same time as opposed to series where its one following the other

Either way his talk is making me want to take my boat on the water just to try these settings..except the lakes holding fish pplenty enough to so his comparison with are further from home.  My great di screen shota of structures dont seem to need the extra pings but unfortunately there arent any fish around these structures.  But the water is close.  Surely someone has tried these di settings over some fish and can sshare their images and or results? Also if im understanding hb correctly even if i get one result on my Helix 10 is may not be indicative of whats pissiblw on the helix 12 or 8 depending on which units behave differently as they say.  Looks like you need a test for each model with each setting at similar depth and other settings in order to determine if yiur respective unit is performing at its optimum design capability

[rnvinc]

I would agree a higher quality processor would better utilize parallel pinging (2 separate piezoes pinging at the same time)  ...

I would also agree that the HB rep I received that info from may not know which exact models can utilize parallel pinging (or maybe didn't have time to go pick the engineer's brains about which is which)  ...

After all, that detailed inner technical workings is not common questions that the "average" User would be calling HB for  ...

I wish I did have an oscilloscope to test these things myself  ...

Rickie

[rnvinc]

I would also add that this discussion of the DI in the MEGA units is not just here  ...

I'm seeing the same discussion in many forums and from many local users of the MEGA units  ...

Rickie

[Whistler]

I have FANTASTIC news!!! 

I am now completely satisfied with the DI on my Helix.  I'm stunned, actually, at how good it now is. 

Why the change of attitude you ask?  I turned off CHIRP on both DI and SI and now the SI and DI at straight 1.2 MHz is INCREDIBLE!!!!  I'm so happy   I wish I had figured this out sooner.  And if someone else recommended turning off Chirp early on in thread, then I missed and am sorry.

Anyway, I can't describe how much better everything on the system is working now (including 2D).  I do still have CHIRP enabled on 2D but it is off on all imaging channels.

If you haven't tried the SI an DI at straight 1.2MHz with no CHIRP, I highly recommend you give it a shot.  It has been an absolute game changer for me.  Now I can see fish and brush clearer and in more detail than I could have hoped for.  As you can probably tell by now, I'm excited about it.

[rnvinc]

See post #7 in this same thread  ... lol

It is good news tho to have confirmation  ...

Please share screenshots  ...

Rickie

[Whistler]

So, I installed update 1.54 in order to get the Chart/Down/Side view which had been missing. 

As a result of that, the down and side imaging went back to looking like it did prior to correcting the issue by turning off CHIRP.  So, I spent an hour or so trying every combination of settings I could think of to try and get things cleared up again.  NO DICE!  Ultimately, I reverted back to firmware 1.46. 

However, when I reverted, the sonar/imaging info just disappeared.  All of my views were there, the unit reported the transducer as connected, but there was no sonar or imaging information being shown by the unit.  After another 30 minutes and multiple restarts and unplugging the power from the unit, I decided to boot into simulator mode.  Powered off and restarted and the sonar/imaging information is back...SHEESH!  Humminbird really needs to do something about the software QA.

So I wasted the first two hours of my Saturday on the lake troubleshooting shoddy software.

Just before coming off the lake at the end of the day I decided to try the 1.54 upgrade once more.  This time loading the 1.54 software caused the same loss of sonar/imaging info as as did the previous downgrade to 1.46.  Another start into simulator mode, power off and restart, and the sonar/imaging info is working properly again.  Are you kidding me!!!!

Now for some semi good news.  Following the last upgrade to 1.54 I can report that the side imaging with CHIRP seems to be 100% (that is, it is as clear an image as I've seen and what I'd expect).  But unfortunately the DI is not as clear as it was with 1.46 and CHIRP disabled.  I think it is better than it was on version 1.46 with CHIRP enabled.

Ironically, with version 1.54, if you disable CHIRP for both DI and SI the image is not good.  Which is the exact opposite from what I saw with version 1.46.

So at present, I'm at firmware version 1.54 with the new Chart/DI/SI view (Yay!) with SI CHIRP enabled with a very good image (Yay!) and with DI CHIRP enabled but only an OK image (meh~).  I guess 2 steps forward and 1 step back is better than nothing, but I'd really like to see Humminbird improve the software QA.  The unit is capable of some amazing images.  I don't understand why HB can't seem to get the software lined out to ensure that all their customers get the best images the system is capable of.

[rnvinc]

Have you tried disabling CHIRP for the DI only  ... and leave CHIRP enabled for SI  ...??
-----

Thru the years of many many updates - I've found that some version updates are cool, some are just OK, and some degrade everything about the unit functionality  ...

Here's a classic example of a software version that simply screwed up imaging on my 1197  ... and ironically was touted in the version description as "improved imaging processing"  ...:


I've come to the realization that's just the way it's going to be  ...

I'm sure the software engineers have good intentions with every new change in versions  ... but in reality it simply gives me prudence in making sure I save every version released so that I can pick and choose which versions work - and which versions don't  ...

Rickie

[Whistler]

Ah yes.  The zipper effect.  Very familiar with that.  Driven by setting the sonar to 83/200 if I recall correctly.

I did try disabling CHIRP for DI only and leaving it enabled for all the others but I still don't think it is as clear as it was.  Having said that, I used it all day today and I'd say DI is probably 90% as sharp as before the upgrade and that it's still much better than it was with CHIRP enabled in the previous version so I'm satisfied at this point.

Oh, and after running the unit for probably 9 hrs today the sonar suddenly went haywire and the depth reading froze up at 528 ft.  It was still showing the correct bottom just the wrong scale for the 20 ft of water I was in.  Power cycling the unit cleared that issue.

[sylvanboat]

what does 1.2 MhZ mean?  how do you adjust to that?

[Whistler]

what does 1.2 MhZ mean?  how do you adjust to that?

KHz = Kilohertz = 1000 Hertz
MHz = Megahertz = 100,000 Hertz

The Mega capable units have electronics and transducers that are capable of emitting several different fixed sonar frequencies (83 KHz, 200 KHz, 455 KHz, 800 KHz, and 1200 KHz which is the same as 1.2 MHz).  As well as "CHIRPing" at a range of frequencies.

CHIRP varies the emitted frequencies continuously over a range of frequencies.  For example the 1.2 MHz band of frequencies being "CHiRPed" will actually emit frequencies in the range of 1.15 MHz to 1.275 MHz depending on how the CHIRP configuration is set up.  You can disable CHIRP altogether on these units as well.  Disabling all together is what I did on my unit when it was running software version 1.46.  Doing this gave me the best SI, DI and 2D performance I've been able to get.

[rnvinc]

what does 1.2 MhZ mean?  how do you adjust to that?

In addition to Whistler's great info  ...:

Higher frequencies generally give greater detail with less range  ...
Lower frequencies generally give greater range with less detail  ...

So the 1200kHz frequency with have greater detail than 800kHz or 455kHz - it just won't be able to extend as far for SI - or as deep for DI  ...

Rickie

[Mark Saikaley]

So, I installed update 1.54 in order to get the Chart/Down/Side view which had been missing. 

As a result of that, the down and side imaging went back to looking like it did prior to correcting the issue by turning off CHIRP.  So, I spent an hour or so trying every combination of settings I could think of to try and get things cleared up again.  NO DICE!  Ultimately, I reverted back to firmware 1.46. 

However, when I reverted, the sonar/imaging info just disappeared.  All of my views were there, the unit reported the transducer as connected, but there was no sonar or imaging information being shown by the unit.  After another 30 minutes and multiple restarts and unplugging the power from the unit, I decided to boot into simulator mode.  Powered off and restarted and the sonar/imaging information is back...SHEESH!  Humminbird really needs to do something about the software QA.

So I wasted the first two hours of my Saturday on the lake troubleshooting shoddy software.

Just before coming off the lake at the end of the day I decided to try the 1.54 upgrade once more.  This time loading the 1.54 software caused the same loss of sonar/imaging info as as did the previous downgrade to 1.46.  Another start into simulator mode, power off and restart, and the sonar/imaging info is working properly again.  Are you kidding me!!!!

Now for some semi good news.  Following the last upgrade to 1.54 I can report that the side imaging with CHIRP seems to be 100% (that is, it is as clear an image as I've seen and what I'd expect).  But unfortunately the DI is not as clear as it was with 1.46 and CHIRP disabled.  I think it is better than it was on version 1.46 with CHIRP enabled.

Ironically, with version 1.54, if you disable CHIRP for both DI and SI the image is not good.  Which is the exact opposite from what I saw with version 1.46.

So at present, I'm at firmware version 1.54 with the new Chart/DI/SI view (Yay!) with SI CHIRP enabled with a very good image (Yay!) and with DI CHIRP enabled but only an OK image (meh~).  I guess 2 steps forward and 1 step back is better than nothing, but I'd really like to see Humminbird improve the software QA.  The unit is capable of some amazing images.  I don't understand why HB can't seem to get the software lined out to ensure that all their customers get the best images the system is capable of.

Where I'm living in the Great White North, unable to try turning of CHIRP and I'm hoping I didn't apply the update yet. I don't recall. Now I'm not sure if I want to update or not. At least Id like to try turning off Chirp and see what it looks like before upgrading.  Good point in saving a version of each update which I have not done BTW until now.

I'm at a loss as to why you have focused so much on describing your images and all the testing yet have not posted any images of them, Only one of the softness which wasn't the main concern? BTW how is that issue?  I do have poorer images on the left SI BTW which I think I admitted to before. But my Xducer is on the right side of my motor and seems to be more because of tilt in the boat and if the motor is in the way. ie when I raise the motor a bit it definitely improves and then again if the boat is perfectly even then it become much more uniform, but I still think even under the best conditions the left side is still a little lacking, However again could be due to transducer placement

As for the upgrades. It seems Id rather have the best DI image vs the trade off of having an additional view.  I had wondered why I couldn't find that view since I had it on my previous 997. I figured it was there but disabled so thanks for clearing that missing view mystery up. If nothing else I have learned one important thing from your posts,  that being I need to move somewhere that I can still fish with my boat in December vs thru ice

[Whistler]

Where I'm living in the Great White North, unable to try turning of CHIRP and I'm hoping I didn't apply the update yet. I don't recall. Now I'm not sure if I want to update or not. At least Id like to try turning off Chirp and see what it looks like before upgrading.  Good point in saving a version of each update which I have not done BTW until now.

I'm at a loss as to why you have focused so much on describing your images and all the testing yet have not posted any images of them, Only one of the softness which wasn't the main concern? BTW how is that issue?  I do have poorer images on the left SI BTW which I think I admitted to before. But my Xducer is on the right side of my motor and seems to be more because of tilt in the boat and if the motor is in the way. ie when I raise the motor a bit it definitely improves and then again if the boat is perfectly even then it become much more uniform, but I still think even under the best conditions the left side is still a little lacking, However again could be due to transducer placement

As for the upgrades. It seems Id rather have the best DI image vs the trade off of having an additional view.  I had wondered why I couldn't find that view since I had it on my previous 997. I figured it was there but disabled so thanks for clearing that missing view mystery up. If nothing else I have learned one important thing from your posts,  that being I need to move somewhere that I can still fish with my boat in December vs thru ice

I guess there are a couple of reasons I haven't posted many images.  I only get out on weekends when I'm practicing for/fishing a tournament and as a result I just hadn't taken the time to capture any pics.  I also don't generally keep an SD card in my unit, I usually keep two map cards in the unit.  Now, thinking back, I guess I did have an SD card with me as I used it to upgrade/downgrade/upgrade the firmware the last time out.  But by that time I was so frustrated about missing practice time the day before a tourney, that I just didn't think to capture any new pics.

The soft left side isn't as much of a concern now that the Chart/Side/Down view is available as the down view should cover anything that may have been missed by the soft left side.  BTW my transducer is mounted dead center of my boat on the hole shot plate.

I want to spend some more time with the current setup before I pronounce final judgement on the current state of the down image, but I'm pretty sure it isn't quite as good as it was with the previous setup, but when I make it out again (hopefully sometime in January) I should have more time evaluate it as I don't have a tourney.

Not much hard water to find in Georgia thankfully   We can generally fish year round.

[Whistler]

Just wanted to add an update to this thread that after applying the 1.610 update, the poor DI performance is either no better or is worse than it was at 1.54.  Additionally, now the 2D is blocky and pixelated.  I'm seriously thinking about returning to 1.46 at the loss of the Chart/SI/DI view.  Which is OK as I've added a third unit (Helix 7 DI G2N) to the mix for mapping.

I don't know where Humminbird software is being developed, but I suspect India.  Having personal experience with Indian developers, I can certainly empathize with the challenges that poses.  However, QA should catch this stuff.  It is almost like their source control process is no good.  As old bugs seem to make their way back into new releases.

[Mark Saikaley]

Thats concerning info. Thanks for the heads up. Still several months before i get to launch. Hope they correct that with am emergency update or something. I was eager to read your update as i figure it was good news so didnt expect backward steps