Author Topic: 2D Quad Beam Transducer  (Read 427 times)

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Offline Swann

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2D Quad Beam Transducer
« on: September 25, 2022, 10:50:17 PM »
Ok so I'm still on the hunt 4a Quad Beam Transducer so that I might maximize 2D operations on the water & getting discouraged in my hopes of finding the Transducer itself so im thinking my next best bet would be 2purchase a Unit that came w/ 1 in the box & after downloading a whole slew of manuals from the H_B Website; it turns out that the Matrix 37, PMax180 & the 737 were some of the models that supposedly came stock w/the XNT9-QB90 Transducer in the box (although I'm thinking the PMax180 may have come w/ XT6-TB90 at some point even though the manual says otherwise) as it seems that H_B "generalized" manuals (manuals that cover several units at a time) contain some misprints & typos & found it best for one 2try 2find specific manuals about specific units. Furthermore, H_B Support isnt much help w/ models that are "discontinued from service" But i contacted them anyway thinking there must be a database "somewhere" - No? Well, no such luck unfortunately so I'm still on my own.
Now I know the XT6-TB90 (Tri-Beam) will give me 90deg coverage But i will Lose Dual Beam Capabilities in the process & hence why I'm looking specifically 4the XNT9-QB90 (Quad Beam) & No, I wont be held ransom 4one But would definitely be reasonable based on condition IF I found one... Now w/ that being said, would Any1 out there have any further ideas on locating a Quad Beam Transducer?
Thanks, Sandro.


Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2022, 09:21:50 PM »
Remind me again what unit you have and what is the interest in the Quadrabeam  ... ??

Rickie

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2022, 01:27:38 PM »
The overall plan is an 1199ci mounted near the dash. The boat is an older 15ft Marvac Bowrider Fish n Ski w/ XHS9-HDSI-180T + XNT9-20T Transducers at the Stern/Transom via Y-Splitter Cable & at the Bow is a 798ciHDsi w/an XNT9 SI 180T (Compact).
The idea 4the Quad Beam is 2maximize (or 2at least improve) 2D operations at the Bow for Vertical Jigging as I mainly "Drift Fish / Vertical Jig / Pitch a Jig+"something" where my main species of choice are Walleye, Crappie, Whitefish & LakeTrout (very rarely hunting Bass intentionally).
Itz my belief that the Quad Beam at the Bow will add a little extra "umph" as my S.I & D.I become rendered near useless unless travelling in a "consistent path" b/c using the "wind as a guide" doesnt quite allow for D.I & S.I 2work effectively (Not that I care much for D.I. anyway & more/less use my S.I + 2D Sonar 4hunting the species aforementioned).
Now there is one D.I product on the market that I believe 2 B effective under these circumstances (as therez near always an exception 2every rule) But that would bring cause 2entertain an entirely new discussion & also mean that I would need 2 "jump ship" from H_B & am Not willing 2do that at this point in time just yet & hence my continued hunt 4the Quad Beam... But, there is 1 thing that comes 2mind, when running 83khz(60deg) at both Bow and Stern ; would this not potentially cause inaccurate readings by way of overlapping frequencies come 35-40ft of water seeing as the Transducers are only 15ft apart from 1 another? Hasn't happened yet w/my Compact at the Bow But am starting 2wonder as there is/was a scenario that comes to min in 55-60ft of water that got me thinking But that scenario there would once again veer us off topic.
Next thing that comes 2mind would be the fact that an XT6-TB90 Transducer at the Bow might help 2avoid the potential for overlapping frequencies But then I would be giving up the 60deg portion of my Dual Beam Capabilites at the Bow and yet I'm Not Fishing more than 40ft of water very often so i don't see any great gains over the XNT9-SI-180T Compact and would see that scenario as more of a "trade-off" than anything else and Not really worth the hassle.
Thanks, Sandro.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2022, 06:11:01 PM »
So my question is  ... what leads you to believe the 2d piezo in the Quadrabeam is any different than the 2d piezo in any of the current xducers in your Setup  ... ??

It’s still an 83kHz/200kHz 2d xducer and the brains to transmit are in the head unit  ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 06:12:33 PM by rnvinc »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2022, 06:14:41 PM »
 BTW  ... crosstalk interference is alway “possible” when transmitting 2 separate signal of the same frequency at the same time  ...

Never really know until it’s tried  ...

Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2022, 06:17:22 PM »
Does either of your units have a setting called “Jigging Mode” under Sonar tab  ... ??

This may interest your quest for better 2d  ...
http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=7991.msg52909#msg52909

I’m pretty sure xx8s got that setting with one of the latest versions and the xx99 should already have it  ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 06:20:16 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 03:16:16 PM »
So my question is  ... what leads you to believe the 2d piezo in the Quadrabeam is any different than the 2d piezo in any of the current xducers in your Setup  ... ??
----> The "Difference" is to gain 455khz Beams @35deg 2the Left + Right of the Bow in addition 2existing Dual Beam operations of 83khz@60deg+200khz@20deg at either end as D.I & S.I become rendered near useless once the motor is off & the Wind is used 2guesstimate a pass or Drift over an area of interest & then once you come 2the end of that Drift, Fire-up the motor & come back 2do an adjacent pass as to "sweep" or "cover" as much water as possible over said area of interest in a grid-type pattern/fashion.

Does either of your units have a setting called “Jigging Mode” under Sonar tab  ... ??
----> YES They Do and believe the theory behind Jigging Mode is that it will cause the unit 2offset pings in favour of 2D Sonar vs equally balanced pings under Normal Use for conditions of either Still Fishing or being Anchored in 1 spot (when D.I & S.I are of little use)... and if i'm Not mistaken - you were the 1st 2explain the theory behind this 2me Master Rickie But when i tried 2follow up with a video by H_B.com - i found the video 2B a bit vague 4my thick skull & never really learned how 2use it properly.
Jigging Mode, (it seems) is something 1 needs 2learn "on the water" & Not really something 1 can really prepare for at home thru the use of a Simulator the night B4 an outing & hence my lack of understanding it more thoroughly w/my main reason coming in the form of a question :
How would i know if i'm even using it correctly other than seeing it highlighted onna Tab under the Sonar Menu?
Another question that comes 2mind would be; Wouldn't Jigging Mode act as a cause 2enhance or improve the Edges or Reaches of the Cone(s) & wouldnt this be a potential 4even further "cross-talk" conditions between 2 Transducer running at 83khz(60deg) not more than 15ft apart?
Thanks,
Sandro



Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 07:28:27 PM »
1st another question about your intended use of the Quadrabeam  ... does the intended unit have a “Quad beam” setting listed in the Connected Transducer selection Menu under the Sonar tab ... ??

Rickie

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2022, 07:52:49 PM »
As explained by Bob in the link I included above about Jigging Mode  ...

Sometime in the past, during the life of the xx8/xxx8 series SI units, HB decided to improve the SI imaging by “re-arranging” the ping sequence in the operation (in a software update) …(see the following)  ...

Ping sequence before the update - 200 kHz, Left SI Beam, Right SI Beam, 83 kHz, repeat

Ping sequence after the update - 200 kHz, Left SI Beam, Right SI Beam, 83 kHz, Left SI Beam, Right SI Beam, repeat.


This new ping sequence did indeed create better SI imaging.

But, it also created a detriment effect for the 2d imaging (simply the 2d piezo wasn’t being pinged as frequently to collect 2d data)  ...

Jig fishermen were furious, because now their 2d function in any type of vertical jig fishing was rendered basically useless  ...

HB answered this concern from users by releasing another update adding “Jigging Mode” to the Sonar function options  ...

This in effect, now allowed users to turn ON “Jigging Mode” to reinstate the previous ping sequence that had great 2d and good SI  ...

Conversely turning OFF “Jigging Mode” allowed the new ping sequence that had better SI  ...
——

In real world use for the 2d image - “Jigging Mode” ON = more pings hitting the target (in the repeating ping sequences)  allows the unit to have more data for processing the size/reflectivity of the target …

Rickie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 08:18:58 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2022, 10:38:53 PM »
Thank U Master Rickie 4clarifying the nature of Jigging Mode & Yes, I've seen the words "Quadra Beam" under the Transducer Listings Tab.
Attached is a small portion of a Matrix35 Manual & the reason 4this is 2help me 2clarify the fact that itz my belief that only the XNT9-QB90 Transducer has the ability 2do "central" Dual Beam Sonar w/ L+R Beams of 455khz(35deg) whereas the XT6-TB90 being a TriBeam has a single "central" Beam of 20deg200khz w/ L+R Beams of 455khz(35deg) But NOT an 83khz(60deg) beam (or piezo stone designated 4that) & yet The Manual 4the Matrix35 is leading me 2believe otherwise just by the very nature of the way it is being layed out in the manual?
Is there something I'm missing here in my research about the Quad Beam?
Thanks, Sandro

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2022, 05:56:27 AM »
Or perhaps I should rephrase my question/comparison about the difference(s) between an XNT9-QB90 vs an XT6-TB90 like this: Is it moreso a matter of Piezo Stone Configuration(s) where I'm lead 2believe that the XNT9-QB90 posesses a Piezo Stone designated for 83khz@60deg whereas the XT6-TB90 does Not?
... and yet the pic above is leading me 2believe that a Head Unit capable of the QuadBeam Function could make an XT6-TB90 do 83khz@60deg...? Cant picture it?
Thanks, Sandro
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 06:04:48 AM by Swann »

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2022, 12:02:05 PM »
Let’s touch on piezoes  ...

Piezoes (in general) have a unique scientific capability of taking an electrical signal (ping signal sent from a transmitter) and changing it into a mechanical signal (vibration of the piezo to send the sound pulse into the water)  ...

There are single frequency piezoes (example 200kHz or 455kHz) and there are dual frequency piezoes (example 83kHz/200kHz or 455kHz/800kHz)  ...

Composition of (materials used) - and construction of (size and shape) dictate what frequencies that piezo can efficiently change the electrical signal (ping signal sent) into a mechanical signal (vibration of the piezo) ...

Efficiently is the key word here  ...

Any transmit signal (of any frequency) can be pushed into any piezo (of any composition or size/shape)  ... but that doesn’t mean that piezo is going vibrate efficiently at that frequency transmit signal  ...

So in the case of the Quadrabeam xducer - that 2d piezo was designed to vibrate efficiently at 83kHz or 200kHz  ...

Conversely in the Tribeam xducer - that 2d piezo was designed to operate efficiently at 200kHz  ...

Now …certainly a 83kHz transmit signal can be pushed into a single frequency 2d piezo (Tribeam) - but the results would not be optimum (in the 2d image displayed) = simply because the Tribeam 2d piezo was not designed to vibrate efficiently for a 83kHz transmit signal  ...
——

Now a point about “advertised total coverage” in HB documentation of Quadrabeam or Tribeam  ...

The 83kHz 2d cone coverage is 60°  ...
The 455kHz cone (oblong side pointing) is 35°  ...

This does not mean that one can add together the targets in the 60° cone - and the targets in the 35° cone = to get a total of (90°advertised) and show all those targets into the 2d image displayed  ...

This simply means that the user has the capability of showing targets from the 83kHz 60° cone in the 2d image  ... and also the capability of showing targets in the 455kHz 35° oblong cone in the Quadrabeam or Tribeam view  ... for a total advertised coverage of the unit capabilities of all Sonar technologies combined in that specific model  ...
——-
——-

Therefore the 455kHz oblong side pointing cones in the Quadrabeam or the Tribeam are not collecting data to input into the 2d image displayed  ... but only collecting data to input into their respecting “Quadrabeam view” or “Tribeam view”  ...

So your quest for finding a Quadrabeam xducer would certainly give good results (especially gaining good results for the Quadrabeam view) when your xx8 unit “Connected Transducer” selection is set to “Quadrabeam”  ...

But the Quadrabeam xducer (or the Tribeam) is not going to give any better 2d image results than any other HB xducer capable of 83kHz/200kHz 2d  ...

Rickie


« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 10:01:27 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2022, 09:45:54 AM »
Thank You Master Rickie, that overview on Piezo stone  configuration(s) & how they fair in relation w/signal output & subjective reception of the Head Unit(s) explains alot & then some.
1 more question 2bring this thread 2a close:
Must a Transducer always B running in a North/South Direction 2 B effective? Let's say we called the mounting side of the Transducer "the North Side" (usually Narrower 2help cut thru the water a little mo'betta) & "the South Side" would B the Wider End (usually a tad more square in nature w/some sort of Shiny Polymer covering it - dunno what that Shiny Polymer is called unfortunately)?... so letz say I found myself in a bit of a narrow & passed over something interesting & then threw the Engine in Reverse 4a 2nd look at a potential anomaly... now other than the Transducer taking on more turbulence which I'm sure would affect the image quality of a transom mounted transducer - would it actually work 2the majority of itz designed capacity? So IF the example was a Transom Mounted XNT9-SI-180T; would it still yield 2D Sonar, D.I & S.I w/the Engine running in Reverse or is the system designed 2interpret information solely in an intended North/South direction of travel only? (Bow being North & the Stern being South 4all intensive purposes here). Thanks, Sandro.

Offline rnvinc

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2022, 09:22:24 PM »
2d Sonar does not recognize direction  ... targets are either “in the cone shaped beam” or “not in the cone shaped beam  ...
——
——

SI only knows that the left SI piezo is oriented in the xducer housing to “aim” left - - and the right SI piezo is oriented in the xducer housing to “aim” right (with the rounded end of the xducer housing oriented forward)  ...

The pic below shows the orientation of the SI piezoes “aiming” left and right  ...


(Note the DI piezo in the above pic is irrelevant to your xducer)

The left and right SI beams are very thin front to back  ...  each left and right SI beam covers from the water’s surface to past vertical under the boat  ...


Think of the SI functioning very similar to a MRI machine  ... as the xducer travels thru the water each left and right SI beam captures data in very thin slices as the SI piezoes are “pinged” repetitively  ...

Each single slice of SI data “collected” is then plotted into the SI image at the top of the screen. The very next single slice of SI data “collected” is also plotted into the SI image at the top of the screen - pushing the previous single slice of SI data down into the SI image  ...

It is this repetitive function of “collecting data/plotting data at the top of the screen/pushing the previous data down” that creates the “scrolling effect” seen in the SI image  ...

The “scrolling effect” of the SI image is always top to bottom regardless if the xducer is traveling forward or reverse thru the water  ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 09:53:27 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2022, 11:32:01 AM »
Understood and THANK U 4that Cross/Sectional Pic !
... stay tuned Next Week 4more incredible correspondence with our Host Mr.RNVINC and IF You Got Questions about your Humminbird Units, be it Legacy, Core, Helix, Solix, Apex or Any other Humminbird Related questions - Why Not Drop us a Line Here at SideImageingSoft Forums... But 1st, a Word from our Sponsor - LoL ;)
THANK U Master Rickie !
Sandro

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2022, 04:50:05 PM »
Uh, Master Rickie, I think I closed that conversation a tad too soon as I have But 1 more question;  U see, i just laid eyes on an XNT9 QB90 T 4the very 1st time and it "looks" just like an XNT9 180 SI T... this is by way of a pic only. Now I do own an XNT9 180SI T (compact) But Not an XNT9 QB90 T... well, Not just yet anyway and that Cross-Section pic U posted came 2mind?
How would the 2 Units be different internally? Well, theoretically anyway as they are designed 2 vibrate at the exact same Frequency(s) and Yet 1 is capable of D.I and S.I and yet the other is in  2D Conic Fashion Only?
Thanks, Sandro.

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2022, 08:37:53 PM »
I have a Quadrabeam  ... I’m pretty sure it’s the same housing as the XNT 9 SI 180 T  ...


The orientation of the piezo in the housing determines what “direction” the beam is “aimed”  ... (note the SI piezoes in the crosscut pic I posted before that the bar shaped SI piezoes are approximately 30° from horizontal)  ...


Here is a round 2d piezo  ...


Bar shaped piezoes create thin slice shape beams  ...
Round shaped piezoes create conical shape beams  ...

I have not cut into a Quadrabeam yet to verify the shape of the oblong side pointing piezoes  ...

Rickie
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 10:22:25 PM by rnvinc »

Offline Swann

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2022, 12:37:27 AM »
No Need 2cut up what is argueably the most "efficient" 2D Transducer by H_B and hence why I threw in the word "theoretically" In that last paragraph as I wasnt expecting U 2have a Cross-Section of that 1 as well.
Most Impressive Master Rickie.
Thanks Again, Sandro.

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Re: 2D Quad Beam Transducer
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2022, 09:00:08 PM »
No Need 2cut up what is argueably the most "efficient" 2D Transducer by H_B and hence why I threw in the word "theoretically" In that last paragraph as I wasnt expecting U 2have a Cross-Section of that 1 as well.
Most Impressive Master Rickie.
Thanks Again, Sandro.

I will be cutting a Quadrabeam open if I can ever find a non working one  ...

Rickie


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