Topic: Transducer Installation

[Mark Saikaley]

 I would like some advice on my transducer location. I have had this location for 6 years. When it was first installed the location seemed to work pretty well . I mean I would move fairly quickly and still get good sonar readings - maybe up 15 to 20 mph, and the depth reading was almost always possible.

But after a couple seasons the dynamics of my boat changed presumably from added weight from adding things to my boat.

The current situation is such that the sonar really only works at trolling speed and reading bottom becomes very unstable at any planing speed. It high speed I beleive there is rooster tail cause by my transducer and I dont know it this is normal.  I havnet confirmes this by looking at the transom when at high speed as I have been alone whenever I haave thought to look but it certainly doesnt appear that anything else in that area would cause the rooster tail.

So I am wondering what sort of adjustments my trandsucer might need in order to improve the conditions under which it would perform better?

I did follow installation instructions as well as I could at the time of installation and seemed to all go well but now Im asking for help on how I could or should tweak or relocate it.

I will mention that my side down and sonar imaging does not seem to have any issues in terms of obstructions. ITs just that this all only works well at trolling speed and I would like better performance at higher speed as possible

Here are some views (BTW its almost impossible to avoid rivets as you will see there is a row of rivets all along the bottom of the transom and they are also scattered over the bottom of the boat and I also wanted to keep distance from the motor and follow the other tips for installation.

Im wondering if my transducer is intended to work better protruding further below the bottom etc. I am attaching photos

[mako9man2]

What is the 2nd transducer I see mounted on the port side of the transom?  Does this TD work (show depth) at higher speed or does it go to a bow mounted unit?

[Mark Saikaley]

The second transducer  and speed sensor are for the very low end lowrance unit which came with the boat factory installed.  I have not used it since I installed the humminbird back in 2010. The filled in holes to the left of the sidescan transducer are from the speed sensor original install which I relocated where you see it now so it would not create turbulence that might affect the 997 transducer.  I opted not to remove the original unit as back up or in case I intended to sell my boat someday without the 997. But I have had no use for it.

As I recall the original was not very good for reading sonar or depth at planing speed  I recall being much happier with the performance of the humminbird by comparison at the time because of greatly improved bottom reading at high speeds and ability to get good clear sonar displays with my new unit initially.

I believe my current 997 transducer as it is now  would still be performing better than my basic low end lowrance X52 ever did in terms of ability to perform at higher then trolling speeds, but I would really like to be able to get my transducer returning clearer signals like it did in the first 2 seasons over even better as I have seen possible in youtube demonstrations.

As far as I can tell there are not mechanical or electrical failures or degradations as at trolling speeds my sonar and sidescanning quality seems to be better than ever. I just can't to much if any sonar activities above 7 mph give r take.

I have had to change my properllor to one with a different spec btw since the original purchase so I do know that modifications to my via additions of equipment did change the hyrdonics. No incidents to the boat but I dont know if there has been any change in the shape of the boat over the yrs or if thats also possible, but its just some  evidence that something may have changed and is affecting the transducer moving through the water

I have also had to change my prop

[mako9man2]

Getting the Humminbird SI/DI transducer to read at planing speed is a challenge.  I have the same transducer and could never get it to read depth at speed.  In your case you said initially it worked up to about 20mph and past that you got depth readings.  That's good.  If it were me I'd experiment with lowering the TD a bit to see if you can regain the original performance. 
Practically speaking you are not going to get decent usable SI/DI readings above about 8mph.  2D sonar is going to read at higher speed and depth readings should be consistently displayed at Wide Open throttle. 

In my case I had to add an auxiliary 2D skimmer transducer connected to my 999 with a 'Y' cable to get depth readings at planing speed.

[Mark Saikaley]

Thanks
Yes I was only concerned with regular sonar readings and constant high speed depth as my original  installation enabled.

Seems like trying it a little deeper is my only variation. I am afraid that my mount is a little high and my transducer might be already at its lowest possible point without having to drill new holes.. I had wondered about the angle but I dont think the angle is intended to be adjusted on this mount?

So no one sees anything obvious about the depth of my installation below the boat ?

[mako9man2]

The angle is adjustable.  That is the purpose of the lower holes on each side of the stainless steel bracket.  Loosen the screws on each side through those holes and you can adjust the angle.

[Mark Saikaley]

An Update but not done testing and tinkering

I lowered my transducer slightly, maybe 1/4", and adjusted the angle.  I have only been out on the water once and as it was Lake Ontario and an awkward Wave I want able to test at high speeds of plane.

What I noticed in the harbour however was some much improved Side and down imaging. 

I also did not lose bottom at any time in the lake and while the sonar image had interference it still showed up at higher speeds ie 10 - 15 mph sitting in the hole and not planing, when there is typically a lot of  interference rendering the screen overcome with interference

I have yet to test it under more common conditions that I can compare but the adjustments did make satisfactory improvements with firs adjustment and yet to find out how much better and if even better is possible . I will post pics of the updated positions and images at a later date and after more testing.

As an aside, I only had to loosen the mounting screws to slide down the transducer and have more room to spare than I thought in the range and re-tightened but did not reapply marine silicon.

I had uncharacteristically regular water expelled whenever I turned on my manual bilge throughout the voyage and while docked at the marina overnight , and I think I just realized why

[Mark Saikaley]

After a little more testing on the water I don't think the adjustments helped afterall especially increasing the angle adjustment. I have less range on the left side in particular in shallower water with the Back of the transducer lower so I'm putting it back to near level. I leveled the boat on dryland then adjusted the transducer such that the back it slightly lower however the "play" in the mount it such that the angle can fluctuate a few degrees depending on water flow. With tilt on the boat I think they will balance when at speed to still be slightly downward.

Also moving the transducer further below the bottom of the boat slightly creates more water back splash but doesn't seem to impact the signal. Water gets redirected straight up the back of the transom plus there is that rooster tail effect however its not a rooster tail but more a break in the water path with the deeper track cause it seems/  I was alone in the boat so could not go back and look directly down at speed to see exactly what the transducer was causing.

I think I just had ideal conditions when I was viewing side and down imaging signals the first time out so wasn't likely due to the transducer adjustments because when I went out on a river I visit much more often I say pretty much the same I usually see.  I do seem to feel that since I mounted my sonar Had on a large gimbal that is further from my boat instrumentation and compas that I have better quality sidescan images though overall .

Ive posted pictures before but for some reason I cant find the link  . If I do I will post some side and down imaging pics that I thought were better than usual

[Mark Saikaley]

here are the images

[Mark Saikaley]

Here is one earlier in the season before any adjustments. Remember the goal of the adjustments was to improve Depth tracking at high speed and to be able to use the sonar at plaining speed. Have not really been able to say I achieved success but the main applications are still great

[rnvinc]

Your imaging shots look very good ...

As mako mentioned ... getting high speed readings with the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is a challenge ...

Then there's the rooster tail issue when the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is down into the water far enough ...

There is still the option of a second 2d xducer and the AS SIDB Y cable ...

The housings on the 2d skimmers are much more conducive for good water contact without the rooster tail ...

XNT 9 20 ...
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/XNT-9-20/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjMtPn4ueDOAhXD6xoKHaylDgIQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGyo7I1Tx9J_Qiodq3hJnuAtwCWdA

AS SIDB Y cable
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-SIDB-Y/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiq44mKuuDOAhUC1xoKHYv-DjUQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFYAvVbGwlCArc1IJ5cXORR7je9Qg

Rickie

[fishreed]

Here is one earlier in the season before any adjustments. Remember the goal of the adjustments was to improve Depth tracking at high speed and to be able to use the sonar at plaining speed. Have not really been able to say I achieved success but the main applications are still great

Do I see some cannonball tracking  marks there?

[Mark Saikaley]

Yes you do. I like seeing those.  Pretty helpful I feel although they show distance from the transducer of course which matches my cable length and not the true depth but thats fine

[Mark Saikaley]

Your imaging shots look very good ...

As mako mentioned ... getting high speed readings with the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is a challenge ...

Then there's the rooster tail issue when the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is down into the water far enough ...

There is still the option of a second 2d xducer and the AS SIDB Y cable ...

The housings on the 2d skimmers are much more conducive for good water contact without the rooster tail ...

XNT 9 20 ...
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/XNT-9-20/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjMtPn4ueDOAhXD6xoKHaylDgIQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGyo7I1Tx9J_Qiodq3hJnuAtwCWdA

AS SIDB Y cable
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-SIDB-Y/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiq44mKuuDOAhUC1xoKHYv-DjUQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFYAvVbGwlCArc1IJ5cXORR7je9Qg

Rickie

Thanks Rickie, I will look into it. It would be nice to be able to scan lakes at speed and in particular unfamiliar ones to find the areas holding fish, so if it works as well as advertised on You tube it would be a great time saver for weekend warriors like I who dont have a whole lot of time to discover tons of  new lakes at 3 mph

[Mark Saikaley]

Your imaging shots look very good ...

As mako mentioned ... getting high speed readings with the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is a challenge ...

Then there's the rooster tail issue when the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is down into the water far enough ...

There is still the option of a second 2d xducer and the AS SIDB Y cable ...

The housings on the 2d skimmers are much more conducive for good water contact without the rooster tail ...

XNT 9 20 ...
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/XNT-9-20/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjMtPn4ueDOAhXD6xoKHaylDgIQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGyo7I1Tx9J_Qiodq3hJnuAtwCWdA

AS SIDB Y cable
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-SIDB-Y/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiq44mKuuDOAhUC1xoKHYv-DjUQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFYAvVbGwlCArc1IJ5cXORR7je9Qg

Rickie

Oh in regard to the side scan and down imaging these are some of the better. There are a few lakes where I am fishing walleye with bottom bouncers and getting snagged up  in the same spots that the regular sonar shows a large clump and I imagine is a submerged tree portion or tree root cluster , however the sidescan or down imaging doesnt  mirros anything close to as complex or detail. ie there may be just one slight protrusion of much smaller propertions. Ive tried all sorts of sensitivities and contrast etc but never able to see more and the sonar indicates a lot more going on and thats also consistent with the ease of getting caught up and the location of fish.  So while I get some good screen shots in many areas its not usually where I am most interested

[Bob B]

You might try reducing the range on the SI .... especially if you are going to run it on a split screen..... Things can get pretty small on SI with that small of screen space and a range of 100'.

[Mark Saikaley]

I showed my transducer placement images to a very knowledgeable Cabelas Employee at the new Cabelas in Ottawa/Kanata during their grand opening.  I learned a lot. In particular the questions that mattered most to me in regard to the issues and concerns I have been having with side/down imaging and my transducer.

First of all he was the first person to inform me that my transducer DOES differ from the current Transducer or identical product number. Mine doesn't have a dedicated down imaging transducer but the newer transducers of the same model number do! 

/I know some of you are going to say that you knew that there was down imaging that it fudged (which I have) vs actual down imaging, but no on on this site or in any sonar shop has ever offered this when I complained that I didn't see down images that were worth the extra cost . ie I got more details and information from my regular sonar and wasn't seeing any added value. therefore when upgrading why should I get down or even side imaging other than I had to give up any features.

All anyone ever told me before was play with my range, speed, chart speed and fine tune adjustments . things I have been doing for years without any significant improvement

So a huge thanks for someone finally telling me about the transducer. There is even a reply on there where someone tells me the transducer is the same since down imaging was introduced. To think I might have upgraded and still continued to use my old transducer without the down imaging crystal as a result !

The next thing I learned was that the cause of my "rooster tail" is that part of the transducer where the centerline of the transducer protrudes below the surface of the boat.  I have raised the transducer to its highest point on the current mount placement but its still protruding, however the rooster tail is smaller.  I will remount on a plastic mount once I do the work  before I move the mount. The current mount location and holes are where they are because of the provided hummingbird drill template and instructions. I will now use that template this time and mount it a have inch higher on the plastic custom cutting board

Next, I learned about upcoming enhancements for the sonar.  Next year all the Helix units will have CHIRP. On top I was explained why CHIRP wont really make much if any noticeable difference anyhow for my fishing depths, but at least I can make an informed decision of when to buy , whether to buy etc.

Also for those not in the know, Minn Kota is introducing Bluetooth into next years motors. Don't know if the I Pilot link will be able to communicate with new Sonar via Bluetooth or just what features are available with Bluetooth for the trolling motors but still helpful to know.

It looks like there will be technological advances coming so fast and frequently that its going to be hard to figure out when its best to buy. Maybe that's why its so difficult to find out whats coming and going, but really we should know. If you spend a few grans and then find out 2 months later the features you REALLY want are not released , well that not very rewarding for being a loyal customer.. So tell us

Oh ya, ONIX is being discontinued

[Bob B]

You got some bad information.

The only SI transducer in the Humminbird line that has a dedicated DI transducer is the Onix.  None of the core 97 and 98, or Helix SI models have a dedicated DI element .... Only the DI only units or the Onix.....The new HDSI transducer is the same as the old HDSI transducers.

[rnvinc]

Your XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is the very same XHS 9 HDSI 180 T that's been included with every core series SI unit in the 898, 998, 1197, 1198, HELIX 10, HELIX 12 ...

It has (and always had) only 3 piezoes ... 2 for SI and 1 for 2d ...


As Bob mentions ...only ONIX has ever had a DI piezo in the same housing as the SI piezoes ...

On another note ... The rooster tail issue is prevalent on the HDSI xducers because that specific housing design has 2 separated mounting ears with a gap in between the ears ... which creates a "ramp" for the water flow to create the rooster tail ...


This is a challenge because the farther down in the water the HDSI is mounted to get good high speed readings = the worse this "ramp" between the HDSI mounting ears creates a rooster tail ...

HB does make a plug to cover up this gap between the HDSI mounting ears to combat the rooster tail ...


Here is a link to the rooster tail plug ...

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/Transducer-Plug/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwi_lpTLwbjPAhWDWSYKHdfcDkkQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHQrP8cD8jSf4SUlbcVxQWSyv-Dlw

Rickie

[Mark Saikaley]

Your XHS 9 HDSI 180 T is the very same XHS 9 HDSI 180 T that's been included with every core series SI unit in the 898, 998, 1197, 1198, HELIX 10, HELIX 12 ...

It has (and always had) only 3 piezoes ... 2 for SI and 1 for 2d ...


As Bob mentions ...only ONIX has ever had a DI piezo in the same housing as the SI piezoes ...

On another note ... The rooster tail issue is prevalent on the HDSI xducers because that specific housing design has 2 separated mounting ears with a gap in between the ears ... which creates a "ramp" for the water flow to create the rooster tail ...


This is a challenge because the farther down in the water the HDSI is mounted to get good high speed readings = the worse this "ramp" between the HDSI mounting ears creates a rooster tail ...

HB does make a plug to cover up this gap between the HDSI mounting ears to combat the rooster tail ...


Here is a link to the rooster tail plug ...

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.humminbird.com/Products/Transducer-Plug/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwi_lpTLwbjPAhWDWSYKHdfcDkkQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHQrP8cD8jSf4SUlbcVxQWSyv-Dlw

Rickie

Thanks guys. I believe my rooster tail is being cause by the corner that extends below half way relative to the horizontal seam of the transducer? True?

That's easy to believe what you said regarding the transducer not being any different. It defies all logic to not change the transducer product code/Name. That would have been a first for me. Interesting fact though is that once I repeated this additional down imaging crystal tid bit to a senior sales person at LeBaron, he said he knew about the added down imaging crystal to this transducer as well.

So am I able to get true down imaging with this transducer and my software update for the 997CSI or am I getting just the portion to the sides being virtually mapped in between the gaps of the two side? ie does the sideimaging beam actually have the gap below the boat within its range?  My guess is it does not unless perhaps very shallow than the gap "blackout spot is very narrow.

Would down imaging be any better on the newer helix? Im leary of getting an ONIX since its being discontinued and I wand to be able to be supported and be able to  benefit from future upgrades and features etc.

I would not pay extra for a unit for the down imaging on a future helix upgrade for the same down imaging experience and not getting much benefit with the sidescan but the bigger screen could help wieh side imagine Im sure

[Bob B]

If you got the info that the Onix is being discontinued from the same person that told you the HDSI transducer now has a dedicated DI element ..........It is better go get your information the various Humminbird forums since the big box stores rarely give good information....They are driven by what their management wants to push that week..... The 2 guys that told you the core SI units now have a dedicated DI element is a good example.  There are also several online stores that have very knowledgeable people.  The big box stores are only good when they have the occasional blow out sale.

The SI beams have a full 180 degrees of coverage .... they actually overlap a little bit directly under the transducer.

If down imaging is a major factor the way you fish, the best bet is to get a DI unit with a dedicated DI transducer to compliment your SI unit.....If you go with the Helix units, you can share the transducer technologies back and for between units, so you could have SI on the DI unit and share the dedicated DI transducer to the SI unit.
The Helix series have much better screen brightness and screen resolution ....especially with the 10's and 12's.    They also have Autochart Live mapping built in.  If you start doing your own mapping, you will find there are a LOT of errors on the map chips.
A lot of dealers are offering some major sale prices right now to sell out inventory before winter.  Call BBG Marine or Universal Mania for great prices right now.

[rnvinc]

The DI image views (in the core series SI units) are compilations of certain data (from the SI piezoes) already being shown in the SI view (computer generated) ...

The "DI Width" setting under the Sonar tab determines how much of the SI data is to be rendered into the computer generated DI views ...

*DI Width at "Narrow" shows only those echoes common in the left and right SI beams = basically the overlap of the 2 SI beams at the bottom ...

*DI Width at "Wide" shows All echoes in the left and right SI beams ...

*DI Width at "Medium" is somewhere in between ...

Rickie

[Mark Saikaley]

Thanks! Now we are getting somewhere with the pieces starting to come together.

I am tempting by the price blowouts but am now leary. Since thats how I purchased my 997 CSI and I was unable to take advantage of any of the 6 years of advancements that immediately followed my purchase.

It might be different if the new add ons and features did a better job of backward compatibility, unlike my 997 CSI experience. If they add blue tooth for example another incompatibility issue unless they sold a dongle that you could plug into the older units like you would for a computer

[Bob B]

Yeah .... You never know what they are going to add.  Some of it can be done with a software upgrade and some of it will be dependent on the hardware .....
I made a mistake when I bought the 1197 on sale when the 1198 was introduced and that has limited what I can do with my system.  The 1197 does have great imaging and is still working fine .... probably better it doesn't support some of the new toys .....It keeps me from spending the money