Humminbird Side Imaging Forums
Side Imaging Forums => 1197c SI, 1198c SI & 1199ci HD SI => Topic started by: LittleGazoo on April 03, 2013, 06:18:04 PM
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Here is press release: http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660 (http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660)
But the XNT-9-DI-T product description does not list the 1198(or the 1197) as a supported unit.
Would this work with a 1197cSI unit also?
I would like to get better DI imaging even if I would have to hassle with the HB switch.
Are the XNT-9-DI-T and the TS3 switch all that is needed?
What Transducer Type would be set in the unit?
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Something is not right about the press release. the release states
"I also run an XNT-9-DI-T Down Imaging transducer to get the most detailed picture of what’s straight down. The DI transducer comes with a switch so I simply run that toggle to instantly switch between the best Side- and Down Imaging views possible,” says Ehrler. "
The XNT-9-DI-T does not come with a switch, that i have seen.. the T3 is a seperate item.
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TTF is right in that we do not package any of the DI model transducers with a TS3 switch.
The rest I am trying to get some clarification on.
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I also read on some walleye or crappie forums that some people have this sonar setup.
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Well being an flw pro HB probably threw the switch in the shipment because they knew he would need it. If the publish date was 4/1 I would have said April fools.
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This is definitely an interesting concept that this FLW guy speaks about...
I am VERY anxiously awaiting some confirmation Greg...
Rickie
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So am I Rickie. I know that it can work at some level but what I don’t know is if the TS3 is mandatory in the connections to keep from damaging part of the transmitter circuitry. I also want to know what other sonar limitations there are, although I could guess at them. I just don’t want everyone to run off and start doing this and have them potentially damage their units.
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Side effects is something i'm concerned because the 1197/1198 unit's DI is a combination of the right and left SI signals from the HDSI transducer.
The XNT-9-DI-T transducer DI signal could be the same 2 signals or it could be a single signal.
I would think the TS3 switch is just to simply switch transducers and would be neutral otherwise.
But the press release indicates that this combo would work.
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Bump.
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only one question: how could it be more damaging to the unit to run this transducer rather than running the optional 1 kw deep water transducer where none of the si channels are used?
stig
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When you run the optional 1kW transducer you set the “Transducer Select” menu to the “Dual 50/200” setting which turns off the Si sonar.
[The “Transducer Select” menu is called “Connected Transducer” in some of the latest software versions.]
When using the DI type transducers, only one of the two Si sonar transmitters/receivers is connected to. The other has an open load and could cause internal component failure.
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So.. Still no info how (or why) this FLW guy is using a DI xducer on a SI unit...???
Rickie
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No, the person I am waiting to hear from is normally at tourny’s and boat shows this time of year.
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No, the person I am waiting to hear from is normally at tourny’s and boat shows this time of year.
bump
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Tap tap
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Nible, nible... BUMP!
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bump, bump
tap, tap
nible, nible
ring, ring ... anyone have a moble phone at the shows?
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bump, bump
tap, tap
nible, nible
ring, ring ... anyone have a moble phone at the shows?
You guys are hilarious....
I say send the drones to find him...
Rickie
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from walleye and crappie forums, it seems like a couple of other pros run this setup as well. could this be some secret test? so there is some new software or new units that will give us the best of both worlds. :)
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These are not the droids you are looking for… ;D
Still waiting to find the details out sjefsrafsern. >:(
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Subscribe
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Long time reader, first time poster!
Bump
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Yup ..we're still waitin on this one too...
Rickie
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Greg-- This might be your chance.
Brent Ehrler's schedule.
FLW Tour Majors Lake Eufaula 5/16 – 5/19 Eufaula, AL
Mike
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This video may be what it's like with his set-up.
http://www.brentehrlerfishing.com/?p=532 (http://www.brentehrlerfishing.com/?p=532)
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That video is a very good example if how one can use the 2d to catch fish...
We're still waiting of some kind of explaination of how the OP states he is using a DI Xducer on his 1198c SI...
tap...tap....tap....
Rickie
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That video is how many folks have been fishing around here for years. It is one of the reasons I put the 'zoom box' request in the wishlist. Now back to the tapping.
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I find it very curious as to why the bass boys are not discussing this at bbc...
One would think that if this were a huge advantage breakthru for bass fishing...it would be a major topic at bbc...
I have not heard a peep of this over there...
Maybe one of the active sideimagingsoft users that is also active at bbc can open this topic over at bbc and get some feedback....
Doug, at the very least, should know something...
Rickie
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Maybe everyone wants to keep it a secret....
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I'm in my bulldog mode of gathering info on Ehrler's setup.
Here's more.
Brent Ehrler - Humminbird Setup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXggXO_JmAI#ws)
Now we know who did it and if the audio wasn't so crappy, we would understand more.
Mike
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Well, he definitely said he has 3 transducers on the back and one of them is a DI feeding his 1198. :o
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The 1198 and standard HDSI transducer uses the following pins:
Pin#1 for the right SI beam.
Pin#3 for the left SI beam.
Pin#6 for 2D 83/200.
So Greg, what is the XNT-9-DI-T pin layout?
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Since the Brent Ehrler / XNT 9 DI T was a press release by Humminbird, I have decided to order the XNT 9 DI T from Amazon, $111.20 with free shipping.
I have some switches so I should be good to go.
George
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Wish he would have said how he has that DI transducer connected: through a TS3 Transducer Switch or straight to the second Si unit at the console.
I still have not heard that running the Di transducer connected straight to a unit or through a TS3 will cause any internal damage or not… not sure what the holdup is.
I too am wondering why there is no more chatter about this.
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It's plugged into the switch. He uses the switch to switch between SI and DI.
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Here is a quote from Doug Vahrenberg:
1198c can display DI from the XNT 9 DI T if your in a SI View it will only show one side but Brent added a Transducer Switch which allows him to switch between the different DI from Dedicated DI and Composite DI from the SI to help him look at the structure in all ways, Shape and transducer types.
I tried this a couple years ago but I noticed very little difference between the DI only transducer and the Composite DI from SI transducer.
Back to me...Now who is going to be a guinnea pig and test this? Doug is not really a DI guy to start with.......he is all about the coverage you can get from SI......Which is good for the way he fishes. Seems like there may be more to be discovered here.
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Greg,
Did I have correct information on the standard 1198/1197 HDSI pin layout above?
Maybe you could post the HDSI pin layout also?
Thanks
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I can understand Doug's quote about the unit showing the DI signal from the DI xducer if you're in a SI view...and the switch allows Brent to switch between the signal from the DI xducer or the HDSI xducer...to be sent to the SI view in the unit..
But what does he mean by "it will only only show one side"...??
Is it taking the DI signal thru pin #1 and just showing a dedicated DI image on the right side of the "full screen SI" (because pin#1 of the HDSI xducer is the right SI channel) ....leaving the left side of the SI screen blank...??...(because there's no signal going to the "left SI pin"..in the head unit...??)
Wouldn't that leave the left SI Channel unconnected with a load on it...which we've always heard will damage the internal circuitry of the unit..??
Rickie
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yes, this is what greg is trying to figure out. and if it is safe for us to use this set up or if it is going to damage the un used channel.
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Right, the DI sonar would be displayed as the Right Si sonar through the Pin 1 connection but the Left Si sonar (Pin 3 would not be connected to anything unless the TS3 switch were used. This would add some load to the transmitter circuitry but I don’t know which, if either, of these would be considered safe for the units electronics. Maybe both are and there is nothing to worry about or maybe one or the other or both aren’t and those who have been using it like this have just been lucky. That is what I am trying to find out.
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Here's something else to chew on. http://www.garyengbergoutdoors.com/blog/2013/03/22/down-imaging-triumphs-during-pre-spawn-bite-3-22-2013/ (http://www.garyengbergoutdoors.com/blog/2013/03/22/down-imaging-triumphs-during-pre-spawn-bite-3-22-2013/)
A quote from this article:
“But here’s my secret: I run two transducers for my side unit. While I use the Side Imaging transducer that’s included, I also run an XNR-9-DI-T Down Imaging transducer to get the most detailed picture of what’s straight down. The DI transducer comes with a switch so I simply run that toggle to instantly switch between the best Side- and Down Imaging views possible,” says Ehrler.
Depending on what SI and DI units you use, you can also accomplish the same thing with the Humminbird TS3 transducer switch.
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Some quotes from Doug in the discussion over at BBC...
QUOTE=Doug Vahrenberg ...It's the transmitter you are worried about. Since SI and DI use the same frequency the transmitter is still transmitting thru a DI Transducer or SI Transducer. On SI transducer it's transmitting thru two elements.
On DI only with 2D only transducer the transmitter is transmitting 455 or 800 kHz but no element to transmit thru.[/quote]
Another quote...
QUOTE=Doug Vahrenberg ....Plug the XNT 9 DI T Transducer direct into the unit or use a TS3 Switch and leave the transducer select on HiDef Side Scan. It works for those that want to try it. Personally the Composite DI is very close for me and would not be worth the added costs for my fishing style to pay the added costs.[/quote]
There is still no explaination as to why the unused channel of the SI is not going to be damaged when hooked to the XNT 9 DI T...
No disrespect to Doug intended but I sure would like some confirmation from Greg....
Rickie
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nevermind. my link was already posted
DI doesnt appear to be improved enough to warrant the extra work of installation or the cost
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Alright guys, I got to speak with someone about this yesterday. One of those being at the right place at the right time things.
As far as we (Humminbird) knows, there have been no reported problems with running an XNT-9-DI-T Down Imaging transducer on the Side Imaging units. The transducer switch is not needed for this (unless you want to change back and forth from the Si to DI transducers).
It is recommended that you use the AS-SI-DB-Y cable and a DualBeam transducer as the 200kHz 2D element in the DI transducer is different and will affect the 2D sonar readings (they will be weaker if using the 2D sonar from the DI transducer).
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Greg
After everything is said and done would we better off purchasing a dedicated DI unit. The 858c HD DI Combo appears to be a good unit. Right now it is on sale for $839.95 plus there is a $100 mail in rebate. I am thinking about making a purchase, any thoughts?
George
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That’s up to you George. I guess if you have the money to spend and have the room to install the unit than why not? You can easily shut the sonar off on one unit while you use the sonar on the second unit.
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George... That would be a good option. If you put it at the console, you would have to turn off your SI unit sonar when using it. You could use the 858 for full screen mapping when not using the DI.
I don't think DI works all that great on the trolling motor.
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Reading between the lines does not always get the correct answer....
So after switching to the XNT-9-DI-T, is the 1197 DI screen working? I would want to view the DI screen and get a better image than available from the HDSI transducer.
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Reading between the lines does not always get the correct answer....
So after switching to the XNT-9-DI-T, is the 1197 DI screen working? I would want to view the DI screen and get a better image than available from the HDSI transducer.
I guess we will know more when someone actually tries this setup...
I just received the XNT 9 DI T and decided to send it back and ordered the XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T because it has 83/200kHz 2d instead of the 200/455kHz 2d...
I'll report as soon as I can get it installed and tested...
Rickie
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Hey guys I was out in my boat today and I have the DI ducer and the TS3 switch set up. I wired this as soon as I seen the write up. Brand new boat so I figured what another couple hundred bucks while I have it all apart.
I didn’t get much time to play around with it today as I was only out for a half day and was breaking in the motor for most of it.
Things I can confirm is : when switched to the DI ducer it does show up on the right SI screen. It does not show up on the DI screen. It is considerably different than DI from the SI ducer. I could guess that it’s because of the SI default settings compared to the DI default settings…. Just a guess. With a quick look the 2D didn’t look much different when flipping between them.
So why does the pics in the article show Ehrlers DI on the right screen?
I know one thing is that my DI from the SI ducer is very faint(can barely make out the bottom) unless I crank the sensitivity to full….. I’m new to the unit so it looks like I’ll be doing some reading.
Stay tuned more to come when I get back out on the water and spend some real time playing around with it.
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The DI image showing on the right side only is because the pin configuration in the DI xducer cable end matches up with the right SI pins only of the connector it's plugged into...
Rickie
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Hey Rickie, I understand the pin configuration from the posts and pictures earlier in the post but the question is :
Why is Ehrler's DI pictures on the proper screen?
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Can you post a link to these pictures that he has...??
I have not been able to find them...
I am curious myself...
Rickie
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http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660 (http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660)
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I can't be 100% certain but it looks like the DI image posted in that write up is the standard "DI from SI" image because the "temp graph" is running across the top...
I would not think the "temp graph" would show in this unique setup of a DI xducer on a SI system..
My guess is that they used the "standard" DI view in the article to keep from confusing people...
Do you have screenshots of the unique Di xducer configuration that you can post...??
Rickie
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That would make sense. Just got the unit so I’m pretty green with it.
No screen shots yet, I’ll be figuring that out the next time I’m on the water.
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I just watched the FLW show of that tournament and they did everything they could to make it look like he was using Lowrance equipment.....they did some pretty tricky editing of the video. ::) ???
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Do you think that it is possible that rather than using the HB switch,
he has created his own switch that completely eliminates the second transducer?
ie. Position A = DI only transducer
Position B= SI only transducer
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Do you think that it is possible that rather than using the HB switch,
he has created his own switch that completely eliminates the second transducer?
ie. Position A = DI only transducer
Position B= SI only transducer
I'm not following new kid....(I'm slow sometimes)...
Wouldn't the switch do exactly that....?? (Allow one or the other depending on the switch position)..
Rickie
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Maybe I misread the above post in that the DI was only supplying the signal to pin #1.
Would this be like having two DI transducers, each supplying part on the signal through the switch?
I must not understand how the switch works.
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It's my understanding that the TS3 switch toggles between 2 separate Xducers to select either xducer (but only 1 xducer at a time)...
This is how I'm understanding Brent's unique xducer setup...:
I would guess that the pin configuration for the 2d and the temp signals are the same in each xducer's cable end connector...
Then I'm guessing that the DI xducer's pin position for the DI crystal "matches" up with the SI xducer's pin position for the right SI crystal...
Then (when the TS3 switch is toggled to the DI xducer)....the head unit is receiving signals from the DI xducer's DI crystal thru the head unit's right SI channel to the processor..
Rickie
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MB.Pro.Guide,
Try setting the DI Beam Width menu to the Wide setting.
Yes, you may have to increase the DI Sensitivity menu. Remember that this unit was not designed to work with this transducer so the algorithms may be different and you may need different menu settings to get good results.
When connected to the DI transducer you will only get right side Si information because that is the only Si transmit/receive circuit that has a transducer element connected to it.
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MB.Pro.Guide,
Try setting the DI Beam Width menu to the Wide setting.
Yes, you may have to increase the DI Sensitivity menu. Remember that this unit was not designed to work with this transducer so the algorithms may be different and you may need different menu settings to get good results.
When connected to the DI transducer you will only get right side Si information because that is the only Si transmit/receive circuit that has a transducer element connected to it.
Hey Greg, thanks for the info. When I was referring to my DI signal I meant the DI from SI signal(Standard).
So too recap, my standard DI signal is very faint unless I crank the sensitivity. Does your suggestion still stand?
The Ehrlers DI signal that comes thru on the right side is very strong and bright.
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I do not know if that is an actual screen snapshot from his boat or not as I did not write that article.
The way the Di View is supposed to work is to take the left and right Si sonar returns and display them together. If each was at its normal strength than you would have a super bright Di sonar View. So I am guessing that by using the Di View that the signal strengths for the left and right Si sonar is reduced (perhaps by 50%) so that the Di View does not end up extremely bright. Make sense? This would cause the Di sonar from the DI transducer to appear very weak. We have seen this same thing when someone has the right (or left) Si sonar stop working on their Si transducers.
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Yeah that makes sense. I think.
Not sure if I communicated my situation right though… I’ll try again.
Ok so let’s say I never put the DI ducer or switch in. So I would have a total standard SI, Y-cable, 2d ducer install.
My SI signal looks great, 2D I’m getting a good return as well. When I switch to the view to DI the signal is very weak and faint unless I crank the sensitivity.
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Hey Greg, thanks for the info. When I was referring to my DI signal I meant the DI from SI signal(Standard).
So too recap, my standard DI signal is very faint unless I crank the sensitivity. Does your suggestion still stand?
The Ehrlers DI signal that comes thru on the right side is very strong and bright.
It is my guess that the DI image in the Ehrlers article is a traditional DI from SI image instead of the unique DI xducer setup DI image..(because the "temp graph" is showing at the top of the DI image in the article)...
It is not uncommon to have to raise the sensitivity in the DI from SI image view to get anything at all to show in the DI view...
Rickie
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What Rickie said MB.Pro:
It is not uncommon to have to raise the sensitivity in the DI from SI image view to get anything at all to show in the DI view...
Rickie
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Thanks Rickie/Greg. I'll see if I can get some screen shots this weekend and report back next week.
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Hey guys, no screen shots this weekend. Didn’t read the manual before I went out… tried to figure it out and almost did…. Didn’t even think to press the waypoint button which makes total sense.
I didn’t play around with it a lot, to busy fishing and enjoying the new boat. My buddy is the one that told me about this and has it rigged in his boat as well. He reports that there is a lot of difference between the DI signals and is glad he has done this. He said it looks just like the advertisements as where his SI/DI signal does not. He is using default settings.
An interesting thing is that his shows up on the proper DI screen. Mine doesn’t. The only difference between our units is, his is a couple years older and has current updates. I am not current on the updates…..
It looks like the update does some stuff with DI so this should fix my problem. http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3710 (http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3710)
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Hey guys, no screen shots this weekend. Didn’t read the manual before I went out… tried to figure it out and almost did…. Didn’t even think to press the waypoint button which makes total sense.
I didn’t play around with it a lot, to busy fishing and enjoying the new boat. My buddy is the one that told me about this and has it rigged in his boat as well. He reports that there is a lot of difference between the DI signals and is glad he has done this. He said it looks just like the advertisements as where his SI/DI signal does not. He is using default settings.
An interesting thing is that his shows up on the proper DI screen. Mine doesn’t. The only difference between our units is, his is a couple years older and has current updates. I am not current on the updates…..
It looks like the update does some stuff with DI so this should fix my problem. [url]http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3710[/url] ([url]http://www.humminbird.com/FAQ.aspx?ContentId=3710[/url])
This is interesting and definitely something I will have to test when I get set up...(My DI xducer should be here this week...)
Question MB Pro Guide...
When you are using the DI xducer does your unit have DI views available under the "Views" tab in the main menu system ...??
If so ..what are the DI views showing...??
Rickie
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Question for Greg (if you're following this thread I hope)...
My experiment with this setup will be using the XTM 9 WIDE 20 DI T instead of the XNT 9 DI T...
Do you know (or can you find out from the engineers) ...if these 2 separate xducers use the exact same DI crystal...??
Rickie
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Won’t have to check Rickie as I already know that they do.
The only difference between these transducers is in the 2D sonar element in each.
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Won’t have to check Rickie as I already know that they do.
The only difference between these transducers is in the 2D sonar element in each.
I find it odd that the housings for these xducer's are so different...(even tho 1 is a TM mounted and the other is a transom mounted....)
I wish someone would get us an X-ray of these 2 xducer's like was accomplished for the HDSI...
Rickie
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I don’t find it that odd Rickie. The XTM-9-WIDE-20-DI-T is a trolling motor mounted transducer which is using our standard trolling motor housing. It needs a larger housing for the larger 2D element that it uses. Now the housing does not have to be quite this large but this is our standard XTM housing and using it cuts costs for the transducer as it is a common part for us.
The XNT-9-DI-T has a purpose built housing that is large enough to fit the two elements that it has inside of it and not much else. The 2D element for this transducer is smaller so the transducer housing could be physically smaller.
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Hey Rickie, I did the updates yesterday and the DI views in the view tab just look like the standard ones from SI.
Full screen DI, SI/DI combo, SI/DI/2D combo. No zoom as mentioned in the update.
hope that helps.
Mike
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Mike,
Are you saying that the zoom function no longer works in the DI View?
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I didn't try the zoom feature, I'm sure it's fine.
I should have been more clear. The DI zoom view (#13 in the update). I think Rickie might have been wondering if I got any additional views when on the DI ducer. Maybe not....
Mike
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I think that was referring to the use of the zoom function when in the DI View and not an additional View Mike.
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I don’t find it that odd Rickie. The XTM-9-WIDE-20-DI-T is a trolling motor mounted transducer which is using our standard trolling motor housing. It needs a larger housing for the larger 2D element that it uses. Now the housing does not have to be quite this large but this is our standard XTM housing and using it cuts costs for the transducer as it is a common part for us.
The XNT-9-DI-T has a purpose built housing that is large enough to fit the two elements that it has inside of it and not much else. The 2D element for this transducer is smaller so the transducer housing could be physically smaller.
Thanks Greg...
This makes sense...
Rickie
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Hey Rickie, I did the updates yesterday and the DI views in the view tab just look like the standard ones from SI.
Full screen DI, SI/DI combo, SI/DI/2D combo. No zoom as mentioned in the update.
hope that helps.
Mike
My curiousity is twofold regarding this unique "DI xducer setup on a SI unit" ...
1. Does the SI unit menu still list the same menu choices as when the stock HDSI is connected...??
2. What unique data is being shown on the display (in each of the SI menu choices) ...and how is this "possible unique data" being generated, collected and processed into the display image...??
(I can foresee lots of testing in my near future)
My XTM 9 WIDE 20 DI T xducer is here...I just have to get it mounted and get it scanning over some known structure...
Rickie
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Rickie,
The same menu choices will be there because you will be using the same Transducer Select/Connected transducer menu setting.
Any data from the DI transducer will be processed as Si sonar data but from one side only.
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Th
Rickie,
The same menu choices will be there because you will be using the same Transducer Select/Connected transducer menu setting.
Any data from the DI transducer will be processed as Si sonar data but from one side only.
Thanks Greg...
This is what I had envisioned in my peabrain...
So if my thought process is correct...the variable in this unique DI xducer setup will be twofold...:
1. The "shape" of the beam collecting the echo data ...
2. The "direction" of the beam collecting the data...
Point 2 above is what really has me interested in this setup...
The HDSI beam (of "one side only")... shoots out at an angle ...with the strongest echos (at an angle from vertical) in the center of that angle...
Whereas the DI xducer beam shoots down ...with the strongest echos direct vertical under the xducer...
I'm hypothesizing this variable is what will give better DI echo returns to be displayed from the DI xducer over the HDSI xducer...
We will see...
Rickie
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It should Rickie. More so the direction of the DI sonar beam versus anything else. Of course you could just turn an Si transducer on its side and get about the same thing too. An HDSi transducer would probably even give a sharper DI image versus the DI transducer due to the thickness of the sonar beam.
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Of course you could just turn an Si transducer on its side and get about the same thing too. An HDSi transducer would probably even give a sharper DI image versus the DI transducer due to the thickness of the sonar beam.
Hmmm anybody try this? I wonder which side is used for DI
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I have not tried it but whichever side that is pointing down into the water would be the side used for the Di sonar. All you are doing is pointing the left (or right) Si beam straight down into the water, just like a DI only transducer would be. You would still have to use a second transducer for the water depth as the 2D transducer element would be pointing out across the water and not down into the water.
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ok I thought Di specifically used one side and didn't want the wrong one pointing up. this would be easy to test on a trolling motor where you have a HDSI transducer and the tm transducer mount with a hose clamp . just loosen the clamp and turn to the side
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I copied Greg's description of the "DI from SI" explaination from another forum...
The Di sonar in the HB Si units is a blend of both the left and right Si sonar:
*- take the right Si sonar and rotate it 90 degrees clockwise.
*- take the left Si sonar and flip it horizontally (mirror image) and then rotate it 90 degrees clockwise.
*- overlay the two images and you have a Di sonar image.
In a nutshell the DI image rendered from an SI unit does indeed use both sides of the SI data....
Rickie
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It should Rickie. More so the direction of the DI sonar beam versus anything else. Of course you could just turn an Si transducer on its side and get about the same thing too. An HDSi transducer would probably even give a sharper DI image versus the DI transducer due to the thickness of the sonar beam.
Greg, do you have specs on the forward-aft angle of the SI beam vs the DI beam (dedicated DI crystal)...??
Rickie
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I believe that the Si sonar beams are around 1 degree wide while the DI sonar beams are about 2 degrees wide.
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Thanks Greg...
Rickie
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ive been following this thread for a while, and hope someone soon would be posting som side by side comparison images. :) (i have to buy a birthday present for my dad soon...) this thing abut turing an si ducer on this side wouldnt the norrower cone angle of the di ducer compensate for the thickness. so that one would have an equally scanned area and get a similar sharpness and level of detail?
mvh stig
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ive been following this thread for a while, and hope someone soon would be posting som side by side comparison images. :) (i have to buy a birthday present for my dad soon...) this thing abut turing an si ducer on this side wouldnt the norrower cone angle of the di ducer compensate for the thickness. so that one would have an equally scanned area and get a similar sharpness and level of detail?
mvh stig
I think the point Greg was making is that the thinner slice of the 1° SI beam would give sharper detail than the 2° DI beam...(that is speaking of the angle from front to back)...
The width of the beam(s) side to side would just differentiate how far out to the sides it would collect reflection data...which by my estimates would be the following ...:
DI xducer SI xducer (1 side only)
455kHz = 75° 455kHz = 86°
800kHz = 45° 800kHz = 55°
I will be getting side by side comparison shots as soon as I can get the DI xducer mounted and get on the water....
Rickie
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Question....
So if one were to take the HDSI xducer and mount it at an angle to allow one element to shoot vertical downward...
Wouldn't the ping rate be affected by the inaccurate reading that the 200kHz 2d beam is reading...??
Rickie
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I think the point Greg was making is that the thinner slice of the 1° SI beam would give sharper detail than the 2° DI beam...(that is speaking of the angle from front to back)...
The width of the beam(s) side to side would just differentiate how far out to the sides it would collect reflection data...which by my estimates would be the following ...:
DI xducer SI xducer (1 side only)
455kHz = 75° 455kHz = 86°
800kHz = 45° 800kHz = 55°
I will be getting side by side comparison shots as soon as I can get the DI xducer mounted and get on the water....
Rickie
That is what I was thinking Rickie.
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Question....
So if one were to take the HDSI xducer and mount it at an angle to allow one element to shoot vertical downward...
Wouldn't the ping rate be affected by the inaccurate reading that the 200kHz 2d beam is reading...??
Rickie
It would Rickie, that is why you would still need the AS-Si-DB-Y cable and a DualBeam transducer.
In post #84 I stated: “You would still have to use a second transducer for the water depth as the 2D transducer element would be pointing out across the water and not down into the water.”.
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It would Rickie, that is why you would still need the AS-Si-DB-Y cable and a DualBeam transducer.
In post #84 I stated: “You would still have to use a second transducer for the water depth as the 2D transducer element would be pointing out across the water and not down into the water.”.
Thanks Greg...
I've read this entire thread a dozen times and I still missed that info in post #84...
I'm gonna order a couple more AS SIDB Y cables...
(I may also experiment with this idea of turning the HDSI xducer at an angle to shoot one side down..)
And I have another experiment that's not even been mentioned yet...
so many experiments...so little time...lol...
Rickie
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Hey guys nothing to interesting in these pics as I fished 3ft and under most of the day. I'm sure they explain themselves.
The most current update put the switched DI on the proper screen.
Cheers
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MB Pro Guide...are you seeing these lines when switched to the HDSI xducer...??
Looks like some possible RF...
Rickie
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The first half of of 00005 is the HDSI and the second is switched...
So by RF you mean some sort of interference? I figured it didn't look quite right...
I figured I covered all the basis covered when I installed.... new Power and ground to the battery, far away from tach wires, extra coiled up as per the instructions.
Oh wait would my FM radio do that? I wonder if I had it on... only brought one CD.
Mike
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Can you post a screenshot of the full screen SI from the same same history..??
The easiest way to do this is to ...:
*allow the image to scroll ...
*press the 4 way cursor to freeze the image...
*take screenshots of the full screen SI...
*press the "Views" button to change views...
*take screenshots of the full screen DI...
*press the "Views" button to change views...
*take screenshots of the 2d...
As long as the "Exit" button is not pressed in between steps...the history showing on the images will all be the same history...
(I know this thread is mainly about the DI xducer ...but I think you may have a RF problem...if you do indeed have a RF problem, we may start another thread for it to keep this one leaning toward info for the DI xducer setup...)
Rickie
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Will do Rickie, on both counts. Thanks.
Won't be for awhile. Heading to a Tourney this weekend is a buddys boat!
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I have an 1198 and 998 at the console and 998 on bow all recently updated. If I want the absolute best DI possible at console, should I just attach a DI xducer to the 998? I'd leave the 1198 with the SI xducer of course. All 3 units are linked via HB hub.
By using a DI xducer on the 998, would I get the best image on DI? No problem using the 1198 for SI and the 998 for DI simultaneously.
I gotta get better DI images. Seeing too many "L" units out there with better DI than we get albeit they get worse SI.
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rf usually have tighter and narrow appearence on screen. did it rain or was waves when you took the images? :)
if you are going to run di and si at the same time, youll have to use diffrent freq on both si/di and 2d to avoid interference between the units. but greg told me in a previous post that there could be some interference even if you do that. :-\ but if youre going to try that, please post and tell us how it works out. :)
stig
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I have an 1198 and 998 at the console and 998 on bow all recently updated. If I want the absolute best DI possible at console, should I just attach a DI xducer to the 998? I'd leave the 1198 with the SI xducer of course. All 3 units are linked via HB hub.
By using a DI xducer on the 998, would I get the best image on DI? No problem using the 1198 for SI and the 998 for DI simultaneously.
I gotta get better DI images. Seeing too many "L" units out there with better DI than we get albeit they get worse SI.
First...you need to understand that running a DI xducer on a HB SI unit is completely against HB warranty and you will probably lose your warranty by trying this ..
This idea of running the DI xducer on a SI unit was reported by a few bass fishermen willing to possibly sacrifice their unit and their warranty to experiment with this setup...
Now.. we have yet to hear of any detrimental effects of this setup...but this experiment is still just in its infant's stage without much reports to go on...
There are a few that are already experimenting with this setup and we are awaiting results from their tests....
(I just about have my setup installed where I can get on the water to test)...
Will this setup give better DI images....?? We just don't know yet ...
Will this setup harm the unit over time..?? We just don't know yet ....
Will this setup void your HB warranty...?? Absolutely...
Rickie
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If I am unable to run dual xducers for 998 and 1198 for enhanced DI while still running SI then I will do what comes next. To sell my console 998 and run Lowrance HDS12 alongside my 1198 for SI.
HB DI is not on par and I'm doing everything I can to keep with one set of technology.
My best friend just installed an Elite HD DI bare bones no map alongside his 1198 and he's nailing it.
IMHO;
SI - Bird
2D- Bird with switch fire although both are pretty much equal
DI - "L"
Customer Service -Bird
I've promoted Bird and have folks running them come to me to help with settings etc.
I've got too much in these 3 units not to have the best of both worlds.
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If I am unable to run dual xducers for 998 and 1198 for enhanced DI while still running SI then I will do what comes next. To sell my console 998 and run Lowrance HDS12 alongside my 1198 for SI.
HB DI is not on par and I'm doing everything I can to keep with one set of technology.
My best friend just installed an Elite HD DI bare bones no map alongside his 1198 and he's nailing it.
IMHO;
SI - Bird
2D- Bird with switch fire although both are pretty much equal
DI - "L"
Customer Service -Bird
I've promoted Bird and have folks running them come to me to help with settings etc.
I've got too much in these 3 units not to have the best of both worlds.
Running the DI xducer on your SI unit is completely your choice...(I just wanted to make sure you understand the possible consequences)...
Your decision of brand is also completely your choice...
It has never been secret that the "DI from SI" images in a HB SI unit can be inferior to the "Dedicated DI" images in Lowrance...(prior research should have easily shown that)...
Stayed tuned for future reports on this experimental setup of running a DI xducer on a SI unit...
I'm sure it will always be interesting...
And I'm also sure it will always be against HB warranty ...
Rickie
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It boils down to what's important to the user. In the case of offshore freshwater "ledge" fishing we use DI a lot. I've had a lot of success with SI and we all know how good our Birds are especially since the recent updates.
It takes tribal knowledge to ascertain that HB is not a good as other brands for DI. I'd hope that HB is addressing this. I chose HB based on ease of use and customer service. The SI sold me and I "thought" the DI was going to be the same. It's not now that I've got 3 units on board.
No regrets. Just in search of the best out there to see those little fishes ;)
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HB did, indeed address the DI dilemma ...they just chose a different path for their niche in the industry...Dedicated DI units...(instead of the "dedicated DI crystal" in the SI xducer which gives great DI images at the sacrifice of longer SI range...)
All aspects of sonar technology are give and take...good at some things but not so good at others...or good at some things at the sacrifice of something other...
One just has to decide what they need in their preferred method of sonar use and then try to match the technology and/or brand (each with it's own advantages and disadvantages) that best accomplishes that need...
Rickie
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I am very interested in the dedicated DI units. I would like to see some images from people running the DI units......would especially like to see images from the Wide DI transducer that has 83/300 KHZ 2D.
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I am very interested in the dedicated DI units. I would like to see some images from people running the DI units......would especially like to see images from the Wide DI transducer that has 83/300 KHZ 2D.
Although my unit is the 1197 and not a "dedicated DI" unit .... The XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T is the xducer I will be testing with my 1197 in this unique setup of running a DI xducer on a SI unit..
I decided if I was going to purchase a di xducer .... I wanted the one with the standard Dual Beam 83/200 2d ...instead of the stock XNT 9 DI T 200/455 2d...
I'm hoping to get it out to test this week...
Rickie
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Rickie
Please post pics ASAP after you run the new setup with the DI transducer. I ordered a dedicated DI xducer and switch over the weekend to test on my 998.
Greg
Will HB bless this experimental approach? Do we lose warranty if we do this? Do you think there are any long-term issues re: harm to the SI units running DI xducers?
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Rickie
Please post pics ASAP after you run the new setup with the DI transducer. I ordered a dedicated DI xducer and switch over the weekend to test on my 998.
Greg
Will HB bless this experimental approach? Do we lose warranty if we do this? Do you think there are any long-term issues re: harm to the SI units running DI xducers?
I will definately post comparison pix as soon as I can...
I'll let Greg answer the blessing part (officially I doubt he can ...unofficially maybe) ...
As the dedicated DI xducer's is not designed to work with the SI unit...that's where the warranty discrepancy will be ...
Long term effects... No one has really tested the setup long enough to know... I would gues Brent Ehrler has been using the setup longer than anyone but he doesn't post here with us...Doug tried the setup and indicated he didn't see any advantage over the stock DI from SI setup...but Doug is not a DI guy anyway...
A few guys here have tried it ... But not enough to give reports yet...
I feel what we are going to find here is ... that the data coming from this setup will have a small advantage from the "DI from SI" setup solely because the beam in use (from the di xducer) will be pointed straight down and fanning out left and right equally from direct vertical....
Conversely, the beam from a SI xducer is pointed out to the side at an angle and fanning out from there...
So the echoes being targeted in the downward pointed beam should give better DI images than echoes being targeted in the outward-angled pointed beam...
We will see soon ...
Rickie
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I received confirmation from HB corporate today that attaching the dedicated DI xducer to my SI units WILL NOT void warranties. Definitely good news.
New xducer, switch and mounts all shipped today.
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I cannot bless anything thing officially and I doubt that Humminbird would bless any sort of experimenting that their Engineering or Marketing folks do not do (they have all the fun…).
I have found out that there have been some that have been running this sort of configuration not long after we came out with the dedicated DI transducer (in the 2011 model year) and have not had a failure yet. So they are either lucky or this will not harm the Si units.
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So Steve...who did you talk to at HB that said it would not void the warranty ... ??
Rickie
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Actually the person I'm dealing with is a manager for both Humminbird and Minnkota. I'd rather not give his name out on the forum. He's been good enough to intervene based on some Minnkota Humminbird issues I've had and with success I might add.
I've sent videos from by 1198 to him so Humminbird engineering can review. We're trying to determine if my current settings have maxed out my capability with down imaging before the next step of installing a dedicated DI transducer.
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Actually the person I'm dealing with is a manager for both Humminbird and Minnkota. I'd rather not give his name out on the forum. He's been good enough to intervene based on some Minnkota Humminbird issues I've had and with success I might add.
I've sent videos from by 1198 to him so Humminbird engineering can review. We're trying to determine if my current settings have maxed out my capability with down imaging before the next step of installing a dedicated DI transducer.
This is interesting....
Greg...can you clarify..one way or the other...??
I'm not saying you or the HB manager is not OK here...I just think some people wanting to try this have a lot to loose if something happens in the warranty shakedown....
Rickie
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Legal stuff...yuk...lol
Let's move to more interesting stuff....snapshots...yay
Well...I'm not impressed...yet...but there is still a lot of testing to do as in any new setup or configuration....
1st and foremost.....Let me say in earnest...(disclaimer coming)....
I, (in no way), suggest or condone you to try this on your SI unit...I made the decision completely (on my own) to risk my unit on an experimental xducer setup not intended to be used with the HB SI unit.....Your experimenting with this setup could potentially harm your unit and/or void your warranty....(as I have not seen an “official HB release statement” saying otherwise yet...)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now....As there are a lot of screenshots to compare ...I'm going to split this into 4 separate posts...(maybe I can get them all 4 posted consecutively...)
1. Explanation of my testing the XNT 9 WIDE DI T on a HB side imaging unit...(in this post)...
2. Split screen Down imaging/Side imaging ---- Screenshots of HDSI xducer/DI xducer/HDSI xducer - right piezo element angled down ~25°
3. Full screen Down imaging ---- Screen shots of HDSI xducer/DI xducer/HDSI xducer - right piezo element angled down ~25°
4. Observations/Comments/Stuff I can't explain
NOTE: these trials were NOT to obtain the best possible images..but to observe basic operational differences that can be expected at the defined settings...lots more testing will need to be done to experiment with water depth/water clarity/bottom composition/structure type/boat speed/chart speed/etc/settings to obtain the best images
Settings/(and stuff) consistent across all screenshots...:
*HB 1197c SI Combo
*6.310 software
*AS GRHA (not really important in this test)
*No TS3 switch used – xducer(s) plugged directly into unit (to minimize connection issues)
*Connect xducer/power on unit/Format NAV Directories/Restore Factory Defaults (with each xducer before scanning)
*Beam Select – 200/83 (under Sonar tab)
*Surface Clutter – 5 (under Sonar tab)
*SwitchFire - Clear Mode (under Sonar tab)
*Noise Filter - Off (under Sonar tab)
*Max Depth - 100ft (under Sonar tab)
*Water Type – Fresh (under Sonar tab)
*Stop Tracking (under Nav tab)
*SI Range – left and right - 55ft
*SI Enhance – Contrast – 10
*SI Enhance – Sharpness – Off
*DI Enhance – Contrast – 10
*DI Enhance -Sharpness – Off
*DI Lower Range – Auto
*Chart Speed - 2
*I tried (as much as possible) to run the exact same track in each pass at the exact same speed before capturing each screenshot to minimize variables...(I had several guys stop and ask me just what the heck I was doing..lol)
Note also...I took the time to test Greg's suggestion of turning the stock XHS 9 HDSI 180 T xducer clockwise (at about a 25° angle...approximately one half of the advertised 55° right side beam angle) to point the right piezo element downward toward the lake bottom...I hooked this up with the AS SIDB Y cable to obtain the 2d thru the XNT 9 WIDE DI T ….to allow the unit to still get good bottom detection thru the 200kHz 2d beam of the DI xducer...... this turned out to be very interesting in the images obtained
Rickie
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These split screen SI/DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 800kHz...
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrials-Copyjpg_zpsb12a6d5a.jpg) (http://s477.photobucket.com/user/rnvinc/media/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrials-Copyjpg_zpsb12a6d5a.jpg.html)
These split screen SI/DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 455kHz...
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/xducer%20trials/455kHzDIxducertrials-Copyjpg_zpsb4634747.jpg) (http://s477.photobucket.com/user/rnvinc/media/xducer%20trials/455kHzDIxducertrials-Copyjpg_zpsb4634747.jpg.html)
Rickie
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These full screen DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 800kHz...(and basically the same history as the split screen SI/DI above ...because I changed “Views” and captured the full screen DI within 5 seconds of the split screen SI/DI above)...
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrialsfullscreenDI-Copyjpg_zpseee4798d.jpg) (http://s477.photobucket.com/user/rnvinc/media/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrialsfullscreenDI-Copyjpg_zpseee4798d.jpg.html)
These full screen DI screenshots are of the separate xducers at 455kHz...
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/xducer%20trials/455kHzDIxducertrialsfullscreenDI-Copyjpg_zpsf608f1b0.jpg) (http://s477.photobucket.com/user/rnvinc/media/xducer%20trials/455kHzDIxducertrialsfullscreenDI-Copyjpg_zpsf608f1b0.jpg.html)
Rickie
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Observations/Comments...with more to come I'm sure....
I can definitely see potential in this setup of running a dedicated DI xducer on the SI unit....Mainly because the data is coming from a different beam angle crystal ...and more importantly....directed straight down instead of out to the side at an angle … like from the stock HDSI xducer....
This is basically what Brent suggested in his video...it gives him a “different perspective” of the same structure under his boat...
I found it very odd that the DI went completely black using the XNT 9 WIDE DI T when the “DI Width” setting (under the Sonar tab) was set to “Narrow”....I adjusted the lower range in manual and ran the DI Sensitivity all the way up to 20 looking for the bottom and I could not get anything to show in the DI view in this setting on the DI xducer...800 or 455...weird...
Now...I've got to get over some good brush on a harder bottom to experiment more...
Rickie
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Rickie,
Interesting testings. I think you should rotate the HDSI transducer more than 25 degrees, it should be 60 degrees. See the figure (cut and rotated from the patent file). A "DI from SI" downward image will be affected by a very disturbing opposite beam that points towards the surface, so that beam should be eliminated (cork, or just disconnecting the wire).
Rickard
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Thanks Rickard....
I was just guessing at what angle to rotate...your depiction helps a lot ...
And I agree...some cork or something on the left side will help eliminate errant reflections...(I suspect this may be why I saw some ghosting in this orientation..)
My initial thoughts at this point in testing is indicating that the HDSI xducer rotated is giving better DI images than the DI xducer on this setup...(like Greg memtioned...the element in the HDSI are longer than in the DI xducer)...
Rickie
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Rickard...(or Greg)...(or anyone)
Beings as I'm using this rotated HDSI on the AS SIDB Y cable...can't I just remove the left SI pin in the "Side Image" leg of the Y cable to keep the left element from operating...??
Can you verify which pin in the xducer cable connector is the left SI ...??
Rickie
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It's the lowest pin in the transducer cable connector. I can't say if removing an SI channel is good for the unit in the long run, but it works temporarily and the unit won't protest.
A simpler solution would be using the SI view, selecting the the right beam only and tilt your head (or the whole unit), plus setting range to a little more than depth. But I think you may miss some DI options with this method.
Rickard
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My curiosity is piqued here...
The thread OP is discussing using a dedicated DI xducer on a SI unit...which, in effect, is removing a left SI element from the system to only send and receive data to the right SI channel...(which is the single dedicated DI element in the DI xducer)...
Wouldn't removing the left SI pin in my configuration of the "tilted HDSI xducer" be doing basically the same thing...?? (Eliminating the cable wire path for the left SI channel to travel thru)...??
So if using a dedicated DI xducer (with a non-existant left SI wire path) has no long term effects on the SI unit...then removing the left SI pin on the HDSI wire path should be the same potential non-damaging effect...??
Rickie
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Rickie, Thanks for all the work you are putting into this testing.
It does appear that the HDSI transducer on it's side has some promise.
In the DI wide setting the sensitivity of the dedicated DI transducer it appears that the sensitivity is greater, which seems to be a common characteristic of the dedicated DI transducers. That may be what helps them make the fish show up much brighter.
It will be very interesting to see how they compare when scanning the brush, and especially how well fish show up in the brush.
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Legal stuff...yuk...lol
Let's move to more interesting stuff....snapshots...yay
Well...I'm not impressed...yet...but there is still a lot of testing to do as in any new setup or configuration....
1st and foremost.....Let me say in earnest...(disclaimer coming)....
I, (in no way), suggest or condone you to try this on your SI unit...I made the decision completely (on my own) to risk my unit on an experimental xducer setup not intended to be used with the HB SI unit.....Your experimenting with this setup could potentially harm your unit and/or void your warranty....(as I have not seen an “official HB release statement” saying otherwise yet...)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't see how Humminbird could void your warranty for using this setup when they are advertising it in their own press release.
http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660 (http://www.humminbird.com/company/media/?id=3660)
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most are finding only slightly improved images for this setup. not worth all the trouble IMO
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Rickie, Thanks for all the work you are putting into this testing.
It does appear that the HDSI transducer on it's side has some promise.
In the DI wide setting the sensitivity of the dedicated DI transducer it appears that the sensitivity is greater, which seems to be a common characteristic of the dedicated DI transducers. That may be what helps them make the fish show up much brighter.
It will be very interesting to see how they compare when scanning the brush, and especially how well fish show up in the brush.
This is exactly why my testing involved changing as few of things as possible between testing the different setups...to eliminate variables to give more definite results of what to expect from each setup...
I will be redoing the "tilted HDSI xduer" snapshots as suggested by Rickard to tilt the HDSI xducer to ~60° ...over the same structure to find if there is improvement in the "tilted xducer" setup...
Rickie
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most are finding only slightly improved images for this setup. not worth all the trouble IMO
Very true ....for some...
For others (like myself)...it's more of a challenge "tinkering" type thing ...
There are innovative ideas discussed here at sideimagingsoft that are just barely brought up on the other SI forums...(or not brought up at all)...
My OCD is very comfortable here....:)
Rickie
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Rickie,
You are correct about the transducer pin removal versus the DI transducer. Either way and the left Si sonar is not connected. However, before doing that to a $200+ transducer, why don’t you remove the same pin from a less expensive AS-Si-DB-Y cable instead? It will still be the lowest pin in the connector as Rickard pointed out above.
Setting the DI Beam Width to Narrow basically tells the unit to only show what is common in both the left and right Si sonar, so on those transducers that only have right Si sonar returns… there should be nothing shown.
A request: I cannot get any of your images above to be shown large enough to see any detail. When you post again, could you attach these as a file or some other way to allow for a more detail look at them?
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Greg, I was able to download them to my computer and then view and zoom them with my photo viewer.
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Bob B, I finally got the pictures to download (was trying to “Save Target As…” instead of “Save Picture As…” Doh!) but the resolution was terrible.
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Rickie,
You are correct about the transducer pin removal versus the DI transducer. Either way and the left Si sonar is not connected. However, before doing that to a $200+ transducer, why don’t you remove the same pin from a less expensive AS-Si-DB-Y cable instead? It will still be the lowest pin in the connector as Rickard pointed out above.
Setting the DI Beam Width to Narrow basically tells the unit to only show what is common in both the left and right Si sonar, so on those transducers that only have right Si sonar returns… there should be nothing shown.
A request: I cannot get any of your images above to be shown large enough to see any detail. When you post again, could you attach these as a file or some other way to allow for a more detail look at them?
You must have been reading my mind...
I did, indeed, remove the left SI pin in my AS SIDB Y cable...(and you are also correct that I did not cry near as many tears modifying the Y cable as I would have if I had cut the pin out of my $200 HDSI xducer...:) )
Thanks for the clarification as to why the "Narrow" setting on the "DI Width" under the sonar tab shows nothing in the DI view in this unique setup....this makes sense....
Now explain the same "DI Width" terms as to why the "Wide" setting in the DI view is so much hotter (brighter) than the "Medium" setting in this setup...??
Do you still need some other type of pix format for me to post...??
(Note: I have lots more snapshots from today's testing with the HDSI angled at 60° like Rickard suggested but I have to compile them in some sort of OCD fashion before I can post them...)
Rickie
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Rickie,
The Medium and Narrow setting for the DI Beam Width both filter the Si data in some way. The Wide setting shows what both Si beams have without any filtering. So the Wide setting should produce brighter (less filtered) sonar. I would not look at it in anything but the Wide setting, especially since you are comparing it to a DI transducer.
Yeah, still cannot see any good detail in the images. Would it bother you too much to post the *.png images with the next test series?
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Rickie,
The Medium and Narrow setting for the DI Beam Width both filter the Si data in some way. The Wide setting shows what both Si beams have without any filtering. So the Wide setting should produce brighter (less filtered) sonar. I would not look at it in anything but the Wide setting, especially since you are comparing it to a DI transducer.
Yeah, still cannot see any good detail in the images. Would it bother you too much to post the *.png images with the next test series?
This is interesting about the "Wide" and "Narrow" setting the DI width with both the DI xducer setup and the HDSI xducer angled at 60°...
My latest testing (yesterday now) indicated that the "Wide" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) was so hot I had to turn down the DI Sensitivity down (in the DI Xpress window) to 1 or 0 to keep from blowing out the bottom with brightness...this, in turn, caused most any return echo in the water column (above the bottom in a DI view) to disappear or nearly disappear...
Conversely, with the "Medium" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) I was able to fully adjust the DI sensitivity (in the DI Xpress window) from 0 -20 to get the echoes in the water column (above the bottom in a DI view) to an acceptable level for good returns...
Now, of course, some of this may be caused by the specific enviromental criteria that was present where I was scanning....but...
The reason I mention this (with specific "in parenthesis" stuff above) is for those who are following the thread...and interested in trying either setup...
My testing so far indicates a couple of important points (with either the "DI xducer on a SI unit" .....or .....the HDSI xducer angled at 60° + Dual Beam xducer for 200kHz bottom detection for depth) ...
1. The "Narrow" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) will not work in either setup...as Greg has explained in a previous post...
2. Both the "Wide" and the "Medium" setting of the "DI Width" (under the Sonar tab) will operate with either xducer setup....each with different results in the DI image view....so try both settings to determine what works best with the enviromental conditions that are being scanned...
More to come....
I'm still compiling screenshots...I think we have a very workable DI replacement (maybe addition to the DI from SI) in the SI units....(with either xducer setup that I am testing).....
Note: I still adamately express to anyone ....that HB has yet to provide an "Official statement" saying specifically they will honor warranty with this experimental setup....
And we can't ask Greg to because he is not in the warranty claims department...(maybe we can get Steve to ask his contact in HB and MK to give us an "official release")
Rickie
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In rickies experiments with the dedicated Di transducer did he do anything other than just just plug the Di transducer cable to the 1197.what about the open circuit on the left side?
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I Added an XNT 9 DI T to my system late last week. I concur with Rickie's findings. I do not have pics to share as I was pretty busy preparing for a tournament. It did improve images, admittedly not as much as I would have hoped for, but I'm still tweaking settings. It did improve just not as much as I'd like, but better and hopefully with a few more settings adjustments will improve better still.
I did not install the TS3 switch. I utilized the network menu tab to switch back and forth between heads and transducers. I could visually compare for example my 1198 with the SI transducer's DI images same time with my console 998's DI transducer images. The 998 images were better when it was networked utilizing XNT 9DI T. For what it's worth, I installed the DI transducer on my jack plate using a Transducer shield and saver L bracket. The installation was easy and a very secure install. Good product.
Warranty- I sent an email to my contact at HB asking him if HB would make a statement to the Forum here about not voiding warranties. A lot of folks are doing this and when you couple the fact that HB created a news release outlining Ehrler's set up, it's a no brainier that they should.
Again, I was pleased to see improvement. Is it the best DI to be had? No. I've seen first hand a much better DI product but will reserve switching to that product for DI exclusive till I've exhausted all my units capabilities.
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In rickies experiments with the dedicated Di transducer did he do anything other than just just plug the Di transducer cable to the 1197.what about the open circuit on the left side?
Yes kosmo...just plug the DI xducer in as you would the HDSI xducer and leave the "Transducer Select"'menu to "HI DEF Sidescan...
The TS3 switch is just for convenience switching between the DI xducer and the stock HDSI xducer...
Now as far as the "open circuit" on the left SI channel causing damage ...maybe Greg will elaborate on that point for us...
Rickie
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I have so many screenshots in this testing it's difficult to find a way to group them in some fashion in the forum that is legible to keep up with what image goes with what settings..
At this point...I decided to compile a completely new comparison image instead of just “modifying” the one in post #118 above...(this will allow comparison of the HDSI xducer angled at 25° as in post #118 above... and ... the HDSI xducer angled at 60° in this post)...
Column 1 (of the XHS 9 HDSI 180 T) and column 2 (of the XNT 9 WIDE DI T) are the same images as in post #118 above.....column 3 replaces the 25° angled HDSI shots with the 60° angled HDSI shots...
NOTE #1 ...These new shots of the HDSI xducer at 60° were taken with the same consistent criteria/settings as the comparison shots in posts #118 & #119 above....
NOTE #2...I did not redo a complete comparison workup at the 455 frequency because the clutter in the image was so prevalent in the image it wasn't really worth my time....(I did capture a few images in the 455 frequency at different chart speed settings and I will post them in a coming separate post....
NOTE #3:....Coming separate posts of screenshots will also include the raw .PNG as attachments so they can be studied easier in the forum.....
This is the new workup with the HDSI angled at 60° compared to ….HDSI “DI from SI”... and the DI xducer...
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrialsSIDIview-Copywith60anglejpg_zpseffce968.jpg) (http://s477.photobucket.com/user/rnvinc/media/xducer%20trials/800kHzDIxducertrialsSIDIview-Copywith60anglejpg_zpseffce968.jpg.html)
Coming in separate posts will be individual PNG snapshots that are easier to examine in the forum...
Rickie
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This post is with the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged directly into unit (Transducer Select – HI-DEF Sidescan)
800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed -1 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png 180
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 1 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png 183
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800kHz / DI Width -Wide / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png 248
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800kHz / DI Width Wide / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png 249
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.5 png252
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 5 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png255
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 5 / Boat Speed 2.7 png256
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png257
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 2.1 png258
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 2.1 png259
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png260
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800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 10 / Boat Speed – 1.8 / Upper Range – 4 (this stretches image up) png261
[attachimg=12]
455kHz / DI Width – Wide /Chart Speed – 1 png189
[attachimg=13]
455kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 1 png 192
[attachimg=14]
More to come...
Rickie
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This post is shots with the XHX 9 HDSI 180 T rotated clockwise 60°...(plugged into “SideScan” leg of AS SIDB Y cable in addition to the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged into the “Dual Beam” leg of AS SIDB Y cable...I also removed the left SI pin in the AS SIDB Y cable main connector that plugs into the back of the head unit...)
800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.5 png209
[attachimg=1]
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / Boat Speed – 0.6 png212
[attachimg=2]
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 2 / (Froze the screen and snapped pix of all the pallet colors of the same display image)
png232 Blue
[attachimg=3]
png233 Amber 1
[attachimg=4]
png234 Amber 2
[attachimg=5]
png235 Brown
[attachimg=6]
png236 Green
[attachimg=7]
png231 Inverse
[attachimg=8]
png237 Gray
[attachimg=9]
png238 Green/Red
[attachimg=10]
800kHz / DI Width – Wide / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.7 png225
[attachimg=11]
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 3 / Boat Speed – 0.8 png218
[attachimg=12]
800kHz / DI Width – Medium / Chart Speed – 4 / Boat Speed – 1.1 png228
[attachimg=13]
More to come...
Rickie
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This post is odds and ends shots ….but shots with the XHX 9 HDSI 180 T rotated clockwise 60°...(plugged into “SideScan” leg of AS SIDB Y cable in addition to the XNT 9 WIDE DI T plugged into the “Dual Beam” leg of AS SIDB Y cable...
But I did not write down the settings other than what is showing in the screenshot itself....
The known settings for the following shots are 800kHz / DI Width – Medium
png242
[attachimg=1]
png262
[attachimg=2]
png263
[attachimg=3]
png264
[attachimg=4]
png267 stakebed
[attachimg=5]
png268
[attachimg=6]
png269
[attachimg=7]
png270
[attachimg=8]
png273
[attachimg=9]
The known settings for the following shots are 455kHz / DI Width – Medium
png241
[attachimg=10]
png265
[attachimg=11]
png266
[attachimg=12]
Observations/Notes coming...
Rickie
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These are shots of the HDSI xducer in it's normal stock orientation and capturing the image with the compostite "DI from SI" ...(this is the same brushpile as in a lot of the shots above...I tried everything I knew to get the best images that the "DI from SI" could capture of this brushpile..even scanning off to the left of the brush a little to try and get the right SI beam to pick it up better)...
png274
[attachimg=1]
png275
[attachimg=2]
png276
[attachimg=3]
png277
[attachimg=4]
png278
[attachimg=5]
Rickie
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A few points I noticed as consistent with both experimental DI setups...(in regards to effects on the displayed DI image)...
*Running the SI Width in the "Wide" setting ...I had to turn down the DI Sensitivity in the Xpress menu to nearly zero to get the image from being way too hot....this extremely low DI Sensitivity setting also made the "weaker" returns to disappear (or nearly disappear) in the DI image ... Not good...
*Running the DI Width in the "Medium" setting...I had full range of DI Sensitivity in the Xpress menu to adjust the image brightness to what I liked best....and this was usually closer to 19-20....I think there is a distinct advantage to this because the higher DI Sensitivity setting also allowed the "weaker" returns to start popping out in the image also...I like this...:)
*In addition to being “crisper”, the 800kHz seems to have a “cleaner” dark background in the displayed DI image... (lots of clutter in the dark background when set to 455kHz)...
*Faster Chart Speed makes structure/fish show wider...(stretching the echo pixel plotting horizontally on the screen or maybe replotting the same echo pixels repeatedly, I'm not sure which)...
*Faster boat speed seems to degrade the clarity/strength/brightness of the individual echo returns being displayed in the DI image...(maybe spacing the pings out further across the xducer's track thru the water ... )
*Setting DI “Lower Range” in “Manual” to 1-2ft below the bottom allows the actual structure/fish to show larger...(Auto keeps bottom in the center of the DI image at some water depths making the structure look smaller).....
*Setting DI “Upper Range” in “Manual” to eliminate some of the upper water column in the image allows the actual structure/fish to show larger...(stretching the echo pixel plotting vertically on the screen)...
*Setting the 2d Sonar setting to 200kHz increases Chart Speed ...(this may just be my software version)...I need to test this more ... as it seems that DI needs a faster chart speed anyway than what we are used to using for SI scanning....so the 200kHz may actually help the images....we will see...
*Pallette color choice makes a big difference in strength/brightness of the echo returns...(we know this even from regular SI scanning...certain colors look better under certain conditions....I like Blue, Brown or Inverse myself but green seemed brighter and more defined in these tests)...
My personal opinion ...we will never obtain the "crisp" detail that some "Dedicated DI" units can obtain...the data is just not processed the same....
I do think either of these setups will allow me to get stronger/brighter echo returns of structure/fish/bait in the dark water column (above the bottom in the DI view)...than using the stock HDSI xducer capturing the "DI from SI" data...
And I feel this is mainly due to the DI beam shooting down and fanning out from there...instead of the stock HDSI shooting out to the sides and processing the SI data into a composite DI image....
I also feel that the HDSI xducer rotated clockwise 60° gives "slightly" better detail than DI xducer...as Greg explained the piezo element is longer so it has a "thinner" beam ...which leads to more detail in the image ...
I just gotta figure out how I'm going to get all these xducers on da'ducer apparatus®...
Rickie
Oh..and my favorite shot is png267 of the stakebed...I'm going vertical jiggin now that I have a tool that actually works for this...
Rickie
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00793_zps2bb47274.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00793_zps2bb47274.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00749_zps32b92f2d.png)
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Kosmo...
Are your shots "DI from SI" or from the DI xducer plugged into 1 of your SI units ... ??
That 3rd shot is saaawweeeetttt....:)
Rickie
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I have my Di transducer from my 597hd/Di unit plugged into my 998c/si
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00757_zps439196b5.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00786_zpsa4a2a61a.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00790_zpsfceb40dd.png)
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Richie, will this work?i want to use a hdsi transducer rotated 90° to the left, using the humminbird y cable. attach the xnt-9 di transduducer to get dept reading then use the ts3 switch to switch to another hdsi transduducer that horizontal to the water.(ill kill the connection to the right side of the hdsi transduducer that tilted 90°)
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Richie, will this work?i want to use a hdsi transducer rotated 90° to the left, using the humminbird y cable. attach the xnt-9 di transduducer to get dept reading then use the ts3 switch to switch to another hdsi transduducer that horizontal to the water.(ill kill the connection to the right side of the hdsi transduducer that tilted 90°)
The way I (most likely) will set mine up is ...
*60° clockwise rotated HDSI xducer to "Side Scan" leg of AS SIDB Y cable
*XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T xducer to "Dual Beam" leg of AS SIDB Y cable
*Main connector of AS SIDB Y cable to the "switch thru leg" of the TS3 switch
*2nd HDSI xducer in normal orientation to the "line thru leg" of the TS3 switch
Is this basically the same as your question...??
I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??
Either SI element pointed down will work set up this way...
I chose the "right SI element pointed down" because of reports in the past that the "right SI crystal data" was more prevalent in the "DI from SI" DI views of the SI unit...
The SI unit does not change the internal "DI from SI" processing when this experimental xducer setup is used...
The unit is still processing the 2 sides (of the 2 SI crystals) into a DI image just as before...
The processor has no clue that the crystal is now pointing down instead of out to the side...
So the SI processor is still generating the DI view from a combination (composite blend) of the "right SI channel" (now in a crystal pointing down)...and the "left SI channel" (now in a crystal pointing up)...
This is why I think better images will be obtained by eliminating the crystal that is now pointing up...it's data is still being used by the processor to build the "DI from SI" image of the DI view...
Rickie
But now the
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Maybe Humminbird can add a transducer option that includes a "DI direct" mode which turns off the left side transducer and only processes the right side.
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Ll
Is this basically the same as your question...??
I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??
Rickie
[/quote] thanks rickie. .The transducer that im. going to use has something wrong with the right side .
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Ll
Is this basically the same as your question...??
I'm curious as to why you want to rotate the HDSI xducer to the left...??
Rickie
thanks rickie. .The transducer that im. going to use has something wrong with the right side .
Well that makes sense...then yes....using the left SI element pointing down will work...
Rickie
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Hey guys, I had another thought on this since you are experimenting.
Right now, doing the creative testing one side channel is open. Is it possible the image would be even better if the other side was connected to a transducer?
What I am thinking is maybe with the HDSI transducer rotated at 60 degress, the dedicated DI transducer could be connected to the left (other) side. That way the unit would be interpreting an image as the software intended with data from both sides. The unit should ping both transducers as if it were a single HDSI........I know.....Now getting really complex.
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Hey guys, I had another thought on this since you are experimenting.
Right now, doing the creative testing one side channel is open. Is it possible the image would be even better if the other side was connected to a transducer?
What I am thinking is maybe with the HDSI transducer rotated at 60 degress, the dedicated DI transducer could be connected to the left (other) side. That way the unit would be interpreting an image as the software intended with data from both sides. The unit should ping both transducers as if it were a single HDSI........I know.....Now getting really complex.
That's an interesting thought there Bob...
It would take some rewiring of the of a cable of some sort but I think it definitely could be done...
HMMM...think...think....think....I like thinking...:)
Rickie
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I admire all the creativity and effort that is being put into this project.
I hope that when the desired outcome is reached, and it will be, HB uses this knowledge
and rewards you appropriately.
Mike
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I admire all the creativity and effort that is being put into this project.
I hope that when the desired outcome is reached, and it will be, HB uses this knowledge
and rewards you appropriately.
Mike
HB has been very good to me...
I owe Greg and Joby big time already....:)
Rickie
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Hey Bob. I think I got it now...in my head anyway...
Using the HB AS SILR Y cable I can ...:
*Rotate the right HDSI xducer clockwise 60° to get the right piezo element pointing down..
*Rotate the left HDSI xducer counterclockwise 60° to get the left piezo element pointing down...
*Hook the main connector of the AS SILR Y cable to the "SideImaging" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable...
*Hook the additional 83/200kHz HB xducer to the "Dual Beam" leg of the AS SIDB Y cable....
Using the AS SILR Y cable should allow the "opposing" SI element to already be disconnected in the wiring of the AS SILR Y cable...
Dang it Bob....now I have more experimental setups to try...lol
Gotta order the AS SILR Y cable....TODAY...!!
Rickie
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Guys it's clear a lot of us are scrambling to enhance our DI on our SI units. This screams loudly to HB that they need to step it up on the DI part of these expensive units. Yes, I've heard that HB's approach was to offer the DI only units and I understand that, but when we take $2k and $3k SI units and convert them to DI units via transducer modifications, it's kinda like replacing your Cadillac's leather interior with cheap seat covers.
Until HB improves their DI technology the best approach today is simple(I know some will not like this but it's the facts)
Buy a Lowrance Elite 7 HDI for $545 and run it along side your bird SI. This is by far the best overall approach as of today. I've seen this set up firsthand and it's impressive.
Just stating what I've seen.
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Here's some pictures using 997si transducer rotated 60° counter clockwise using the left element(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00871_zpse0054ac7.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00869_zpsa7527c57.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00863_zpsb4d2e257.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00862_zps1dc88597.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00855_zps250cc11d.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00847_zps1712da5b.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00851_zps4818bded.png)
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I forgot to mention that I've got the 997 transducer hooked to my 998 an also i used the wide Di setting.ill try medium and narrow later.(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00861_zps5517d25d.png)
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Thanks kosmo...
How do you think the shots compare between the DI xducer and the HDSI rotated 60° ... ??
Rickie
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From what I see what you're getting with your down imaging transducer rotated sideways, it is far superior than the dedicated down imaging transducer.
As a testimony to the superior SI technology that HB has. How are you mounting it on your boat? Can you show us ?
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From what I see what you're getting with your down imaging transducer rotated sideways, it is far superior than the dedicated down imaging transducer.
As a testimony to the superior SI technology that HB has. How are you mounting it on your boat? Can you show us ?
Uh...mine is a little ....un-conventional...to say the least...lol
Maybe kosmo will give us a pic of his setup with the HDSI xducer rotated 60° ...as his configuration would be more apt to fit applications on a bass boat...
Rickie
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I think that Im getting better results from the tranducer that tilted but i still need to test both more.Both options are a whole lot better than the stock tranducer mounted parallel to the water.
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I have a three inch aluminium channel just little longer than the strolling motor housing .It has notches cut in it for the three tranducers that i now have
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kosmo...
You can test the HDSI rotated 60° setup on the "Narrow" setting if the "DI Width" but you will only get a black screen on the DI view of the SI unit...(the "Narrow" setting on the DI xducer does not work either)..
Greg explains that this is because the "Narrow" setting is ..."what echo targets happen to be in both the left and right SI at the same time".... (Basically what targets happen to be the "overlap" of the 2 separate SI channels under the boat)...
So ...because the left SI has been disconnected...there is no way for any echo target to be common in the left SI and the right SI....therefore no DI image (in this "Narrow" setting)...
The "DI Width" settings of "Wide" and "Medium" both will provide a DI view in the SI unit...each will need different settings to garner an acceptable DI image....
I found the "Medium" setting as giving me more adjustability in the DI sensitivity setting...but your testing may vary ....try both the "Wide" and "Medium" DI Width settings...
Rickie
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Ok.thanks rickie .so far it seems to me that while using the wide setting in Di menu somewhere around 9,10,11 on sensitivity and anywhere from 6 to 12 on contrast works best.even in this picture i still didn't go past 11 on sensitivitity. (http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00870_zps6a4c4ea6.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00870_zps6a4c4ea6.png.html)
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I agree with your observation that the "Wide" setting ran with lower DI sensitivity seemed to give better bottom detail...
But it also seemed to me that I could get fish and brush echoes to show better by running the "Medium" setting and then adjusting the DI sensitivity way up to 19 or 20...
Try the "Medium" setting on brush or stakebeds or other small detailed echoes up in the water column and see if you see the same results...
Rickie
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/20130702_152158_zps6483d9ed.jpg) here's a picture of my transducers mounted on the trolling motor
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Today i tried the medium setting on Di.its like rickie said you have to turn sensitivity way up but does change the way the structure is shown on the screen.i personally didn't care for the medium setting. i think from what I've tested so far believe that if a person that running humminbird si units wants to get the most detail of small structure and get the best and brightest returns from fishes you can run the dedicated Di like Im doing with the unit set to 800kHz on wide setting.i believe this method gives 70 to 80 % better detail than what i was getting using the standard transducer running it level.i can't wait to see rickies lowbird transducer setup
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00909_zpsd02eec07.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00902_zps468f9319.png)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00892_zps6633ab63.png)
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Today i tried the medium setting on Di.its like rickie said you have to turn sensitivity way up but does change the way the structure is shown on the screen.i personally didn't care for the medium setting. i think from what I've tested so far believe that if a person that running humminbird si units wants to get the most detail of small structure and get the best and brightest returns from fishes you can run the dedicated Di like Im doing with the unit set to 800kHz on wide setting.i believe this method gives 70 to 80 % better detail than what i was getting using the standard transducer running it level.i can't wait to see rickies lowbird transducer setup
I've had to work all week but hope to get back on the Lowbird DownImaging experiment today (Friday)...
I think abra is working on it also...I think his setup is deep water on a towfish but it will still be interesting....
Anyone else working toward testing the LSS 2 downscan element thru the right SI channel of a HB SI...??
Rickie
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I was able to get the LowBird downscan LSS 2 on my 1197c SI out today for some initial testing...
1st the easy conclusion...Hooking the temp from the LSS 2 up to the temperature channel of the HB SI does work...but inacurately .....as Rickard suggested it probably would....
My water temp at the lake today was 84°....the LSS 2 temp reading thru my 1197 showed 112.7°...
If I remember correctly...Greg made mention that the 1st test the unit does when first powered on is to "ding" the TEMP probe to see if there is a xducer attached...and if it detects the TEMP probe, then the unit starts in "Normal" operation......
The unit did indeed boot up into normal with no popup of "No xducer" ..nor anything odd that I could tell..and the "System Status' screen showed the "Temperature" as "Connected"....
That being said...if the LSS 2 works out as a viable possibility...I will have to do some creative wiring to get a more accurate temperature reading....
Now for the image quality...I'm not happy yet....
I tested 6.310 and 6.640 on the LSS 2 "downscan element thru the HB SI right channel" ...
6.640 is still showing the jagged zigzagg jigsaw effect as has already been posted by me and others...so 6.640 in my 1197 using the LSS 2 downscan element is not even worth showing ...
6.310 is a little better but I'm seeing a "double image effect" with the LSS 2 downscan element that I don't recall seeing in either of the other experimental xducer tests I have completed up till now...
I tried slow and fast boat speeds....slow and fast chart speeds...DI width Wide and Medium...800 and 455...200only...200/83...83only...
I could get the structure to the width and height that I wanted to see...but nothing I tried would eliminate this "double image effect" in the DI image...
[attachimg=1]
This "double image effect" is blurring the DI image so as to not being able to tell any type of image quality.
I will be testing with even older software versions to see if I can find a version that works with the LSS 2 downscan element...
I'm open for ideas on maybe what is causing this "double image effect"...
Rickie
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Rickie,
I think the double image you got can be caused by a "twin peaks" phenomenon. This means there is no mainlobe, but two strong sidelobes. This is the effect of combining elements with opposite pooling. But as I understand your wiring only the LSS-2 downscan array is connected? If the right SI array is active at the same time as the DI array, and if they happen to be connected with opposite pooling the main beam can be reduced and two strong sidelobes may appear. This is just a hypothesis and I have not simulated this particular case.
Does the SI view show the same double image as the DI view?
Rickard
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Thanks Rickard for the possiblity...but none of the other channels were connected in this experiment..
The "temp channel" and the "LSS 2 DownScan to HB right SI channel" are the only 2 channels that I have created for the DownScan trial testing...(83/200 2d is coming from Dual Beam thru the other leg of the AS SIDB Y cable)...
I did not see the "double image effect" in the right SI view...(I will zoom in on structure next time out in the right SI view to determine definitely if the "double image effect" is in the SI view also)...
I did also see the "double image effect" in the 6.640 software (barely)...but it wasn't as easily seen in the image because the "jagged zigzag effect" in the 6.640 is so bad anyway ...it's difficult to tell what was what in the image...
I'm still going to test this more before moving to the LSS 2 SI Lowbird project..I really want this DownScan element to work correctly...but I really can't think of anything else to try except changing software versions again...
I'm open for ideas...either in this testing or future possible scenarios/settings to try...
Rickie
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It strikes me this could have to do with nearfield anomalies. The nearfield is about 15 feet at 800 kHz. At closer range than the nearfield limit the beam is full of ripples which can cause double images. This is the price for narrow beam at longer range. Have you tested your DI setup in deep water?
I looked through some close range images and could not find any double image tendencies in the SI views with the LSS-2. It seems to be unique to the DI channel or the image processing for that channel.
I would record and look at the SI and DI images with Humviewer. If there is no double image with Humviewer (or any viewer) the issue is isolated to the unit/processing. The unit display image is the result of alot of post processing of the raw sonar data. The recorded data are not affected by any post processing so these data tell more about the behavior of the transducer than the display snapshots do.
Rickard
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Thanks Rickard ...
I will get some recording and test thru Humviewer as I have only captured screenshots from the unit itself in the 1 test trip...
I will also test is some deeper water for comparison ...
One other test I may try (just for grins and giggles)... Is to connect the LSS 2 right SI channel to the HB right SI channel and rotate the LSS 2 to point the right array down..
Can I assume the LSS 2 SI array angle is the same as the HDSI such that I would rotate the LSS 2 to 60° similar to that HDSI rotated 60° testing recently ... ??
Rickie
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Can I assume the LSS 2 SI array angle is the same as the HDSI such that I would rotate the LSS 2 to 60° similar to that testing I done just recently ... ??
Yes, it looks as if the angle is the same. You could try estimating the angle from the images in this thread:
http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=5581.0 (http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=5581.0)
Rickard
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It's been way to hot to get on the water the last few days...
So I've been working on my xducer setup...
I have it now where I can easily rotate the HDSI or the LSS 2 for the 60° rotation setup...
Now if it will just cool off a little where I can do some on the water testing..
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/HB/null_zpsc30732e6.jpg)
Rickie
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Now that shows dedication to testing.......Only problem is you are out of room for the 360 transducer. ;D
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Greg...do you have a pinout diagram of the following?...:
*AS SW Y
*AS T Y
*TG W
Thanks
Rickie
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All I have is the attached.
I'm kind of tied up with some training stuff here so would not be able to get the other information to you in weeks possibly.
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All I have is the attached.
I'm kind of tied up with some training stuff here so would not be able to get the other information to you in weeks possibly.
That pin out confirms what I needed to know Greg...thanks...
No need to find the others in the list...
You should slow down on that training stuff...fishing is way more fun...
Rickie
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00977_zpsb07ae80e.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00977_zpsb07ae80e.png.html)(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00973_zps9de1a2f8.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00973_zps9de1a2f8.png.html)(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00968_zps1d6798ad.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00968_zps1d6798ad.png.html)(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00971_zpsa16a64d3.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00971_zpsa16a64d3.png.html)
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(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00958_zps619a38df.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00958_zps619a38df.png.html)(http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/kosmo012/S00965_zps2f73b73e.png) (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/kosmo012/media/S00965_zps2f73b73e.png.html)
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For now I think I will just continue with this thread (as its tied to the experimental xducer setup started with Brent's setup)...
Ok...so I was finally able to get some time off from work to do some initial on the water testing of the new experimental LowBird setup...
I basically built a Y cable that splits the LSS 2 SideScan piezo elements from the DownScan piezo element and plugs directly into my HB TS3 switch...(basically a "plug and play" Y cable to run a LSS 2 on a HB)...
This setup allows me to select SideScan separately from DownScan (dedicated DI) from the LSS 2 with the HB TS3 switch running to my HB 1197c SI Combo...i
I will post some screenshots later when I get them put together in "forum ready fashion"...
But I wanted to give some initial thoughts of my findings so far running the LSS 2 on my HB....
1st (and most important to me) ...was comfirming that it is possible to identify and splice all the correct wires into the correct configuration to actually be able to make a "plug and play" Y cable that separates the LSS 2 SideScan elements from the single DownScan element.....and it operate correctly on a HB SI unit...
2nd...the SI image quality of the LowBird LSS 2 setup seems marginally better than the HDSI Side Imaging setup..but more importantly...the LowBird LSS 2 SideScan has better "Sensitivity" adjustability....meaning the LSS 2 can be ran at a lower sensitivity setting to get the same brightness level needed with the HDSI....(this is beneficial because there are times that the HDSI sensitivity had to be ran "maxed out" at 800kHz on a mud bottom to get enough brightness to suit me...the LowBird LSS 2 still had 5 clicks adjustability before max)....
3rd...the LowBird LSS 2 DownScan stills needs more experiments...there is definate improvement in target echo returns compared to the "DI from SI" of the HDSI ...but I'm still getting a DI "double echo" phenomenon that I have to figure out...(I'm not sure yet if it is caused by the HB unit image post processing or from the extra large sound wave sidelobes created by the longer array in the LSS 2 as mentioned previously by Rickard)....
What I find most interesting with the LowBird LSS 2 Y cable is the ease of experimenting with different xducer configurations with simple "plug and play" capability ...I now have several options of which xducer and which piezoes I want to run thru which feature of the HB SI unit...
Oh...and by the way...I also experimented with 1 HDSI xducer rotated 60° clockwise linked with a 2nd HDSI xducer rotated 60° counterclockwise on a AS SILR Y cable to see what the blended DI from SI would be from 2 separate HDSI piezo elements pointed straight down together....interesting results but that's a topic for later....
Right now I'm using LSS 2 SideScan on 1 leg of the HB TS3 switch and the HB XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T dedicated DI xducer on the 2nd leg of the HB TS3 switch ....
LSS 2 SideScan and HB dedicated DI on my 1197c SI Combo....pretty cool...
I'll get some screenshots up soon...
Rickie
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Impressive work Rickie!
The double echo issue is puzzling. Is this unique to the DI array in the LSS-2, or does it appear also when an SI array is used in the DI channel?
If I would guess, I think the setup with DI from SI with two rotated SI arrays pointing in the same direction will result in very sharp main beam, but also strong sidelobes and therefore a visible triple image phenomenon. This should happen if the transducers are lined up one behind the other. If the transducers are mounted parallell with each other the along track resolution should be the same as with a single transducer, but there will appear stripes/ridges sideways.
I think....
Rickard
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I'm still compiling forum worthy screenshots from the new LSS 2 setup on my 1197c SI Combo...
In the meantime...here are the diagrams for the new "LowBird Y cable" pinout and the "LSS 2 on 1197" setup configuration to get this all to work...
[attachimg=1]
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/LSS%202/LowBirdYcablepinountpng_zps3e41e240.png (http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/LSS%202/LowBirdYcablepinountpng_zps3e41e240.png)
[attachimg=2]
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/LSS%202/LSS2cablingdiagrampng_zps742dd058.png (http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/LSS%202/LSS2cablingdiagrampng_zps742dd058.png)
It may be important to note here the parts I used to build the "LowBird Y cable".....
*1 Female end of Lowrance 9 pin EX-10BLK xducer extension cable part no...00099-006
http://www.amazon.com/Lowrance-10EX-BLK-Extension-Cable-Transducer/dp/B00DP0A92G/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1376919154&sr=8-3-fkmr2&keywords=lowrance+xt+10blk (http://www.amazon.com/Lowrance-10EX-BLK-Extension-Cable-Transducer/dp/B00DP0A92G/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1376919154&sr=8-3-fkmr2&keywords=lowrance+xt+10blk)
*Male end of 2 separate HB AS T Y cables part no....720075-1
http://store.humminbird.com/products/465356/AS_T_Y (http://store.humminbird.com/products/465356/AS_T_Y)
It's also important to note here that I chose the HB AS T Y cable because it had 2 completely separate bare wires for ground/drain....(both bare wire ground/drains tied to the same #7 center pin in the HB cable connector end...)
This allowed me to have a separate ground/drain wire for each leg of the "LowBird Y cable"...(1 each for the SI path sonar data and 1 each for the DI path sonar data)...
The benefit of this setup using the HB TS3 switch is to be able to completely isolate the LSS 2 SideScan element(2) operation from the LSS 2 DownScan element(1) operation...(Even a Lowrance unit cannot do this sonar isolation)...
Another point I want to bring up is the importance of keeping all the shielding foil intact to use in the construction of the "LowBird Y cable"...
The Lowrance XT 10BLK cable has foil shielding around pairs (except the Temp channel)...and a main foil shielding around all wires....
The HB AS T Y cables have foil shielding around all wires except the bare ground/drain...
After I had the Y cable constructed to the point of all the smaller foil shielding being re-applied...
*I used the bare wire of the Lowrance XT 10BLK to wrap around the completed wire bundle supplying the SI leg of the "LowBird Y cable"...
*I stripped the insulation from the black wire of the Lowrance XT 10BLK and wrapped the now bare wire around the completed wire bundle supplying the DI leg of the "LowBird Y cable...
*Then I used the main foil shielding of the Lowrance XT 10BLk to wrap the entire wire collection wire bundle up to the point where the "LowBird Y cable" split into separate legs for the SI and the DI....
I also used "double layer heat shrink" on most all connections.....
*The "1st layer" heat shrink tubing I used regular heat shrink tubing insulation over the soldered connections ...(Lowrance channel to HB channel soldered connections)
*Then I used a "2nd layer" heat shrink tubing (with EMI/RFI construction) over the "1st layer" heat shrink tubing....
http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-shrink-tubing/=o4s5g4 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-shrink-tubing/=o4s5g4)
It was a very interesting project...
Rickie
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Whew!
I think I can grasp the logic in this system.... for a second at a time! :) Really impressive. I have one question, do you really need two separate HB Dual beam transducers as indicated in the lower wiring diagram?
Rickard
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Whew!
I think I can grasp the logic in this system.... for a second at a time! :) Really impressive. I have one question, do you really need two separate HB Dual beam transducers as indicated in the lower wiring diagram?
Rickard
Rickard...
My goal was to have a Y cable setup that completely separates (and isolates) the LSS 2 SideScan function from the DownScan function...and have the setup easily selectable (with the HB TS3 switch)..so that during fishing I wouldn't have to plug and unplug cables to select SideScan from DownScan...
The HB TS3 switch allows this selection/isolation with 1 toggle switch...
Right now I'm using 1 HDSI to supply 200/83 for 1 leg of the sonar path ...
And 1 XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T to supply 200/83 for the other leg of the sonar path...
My LSS 2, HDSI, and XTM 9 WIDE DI 20 T are all mounted together anyway on my deployable bracket so the choice of xducer's is not unhandy at all...except that I don't want the inconvenience of plugging and unplugging while I'm fishing...
Do you see another cabling setup possibility that would accomplish my goals without the use of 2 separate 200/83 HB Dual Beam xducers...??
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/rnvinc/HB/null_zpsc30732e6.jpg)
Rickie
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Do you see another cabling setup possibility that would accomplish my goals without the use of 2 separate 200/83 HB Dual Beam xducers...??
Yes, I think there are possibilities. The HB Dual beam wires in the AS SIDB Y cables could be joined and connected to the same Dual beam transducer. This means more cutting and soldering. Depending on the position of the TS 3 switch one cable leg will be a "loose end". This solution is not very attractive. Instead, you could plug the SI and DI paths in the Lowbird Y-cable directly to the TS 3 switch and add a AS SIDB Y cable between the TS 3 switch and the unit. Connect the TS 3 to SI/DI leg, and the HB Dual beam transducer to the other leg of this AS SIDB Y cable.
I may have missed something, though......
Rickard
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That is very interesting...
Although I'm definately not afraid of cutting wires for the 1st scenario...I think the second scenario is very doable....
I will experiment with this and post results...
I still need to get out anyway for more tests on the LowBird DownScan...
Thanks Rickard
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I forgot to mention during my tests on the water...I captured some short recordings of the LowBird DownScan...set at 200kHz, 200/83kHz, and 83kHz...
The DownScan double image phenomenon is in the Humviewer recording also....
I have some more ideas to try the next time out...
I still want to record the SideScan and then view the blended DI from SI in Humviewer ...
And I also may try rotating the LSS 2 60° to use the right element for a DownScan trial....
Rickie
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Ricki
Have you any more info on this. What did you choose as best DI. Any as good as the competition?
Thanks
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I have no new experiments other than the ones listed in this thread ...(Too busy designing a Deployable bracket for the bow 360)...
I will mention that the HDSI rotated at 60° seems to obtain the best DI images of the experiments I conducted on my 1197 ...
Is this DI as good as a dedicated DI unit ... No ... (I feel this is because a dedicated DI unit has specific software and algorithms to render DI images ... My 1197 only has programming to render "DI from SI" )...
Are the DI images good enough to go to the trouble of multiple xducers and Y cables and such ... ??... Absolutely ...
My next experiment (when I get time) ... Will be building a custom Y cable to use the ONIX xducer on my 1197...
Rickie
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I have no new experiments other than the ones listed in this thread ...(Too busy designing a Deployable bracket for the bow 360)...
I will mention that the HDSI rotated at 60° seems to obtain the best DI images of the experiments I conducted on my 1197 ...
Is this DI as good as a dedicated DI unit ... No ... (I feel this is because a dedicated DI unit has specific software and algorithms to render DI images ... My 1197 only has programming to render "DI from SI" )...
Are the DI images good enough to go to the trouble of multiple xducers and Y cables and such ... ??... Absolutely ...
My next experiment (when I get time) ... Will be building a custom Y cable to use the ONIX xducer on my 1197...
Rickie
Rickie, when you do your experimenting using an onix transducer on your 1197 I would like to offer the use of a 998 unit touse also just to compare the algorithms between the two softwares.
I think the results could be interesting
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Rickie, when you do your experimenting using an onix transducer on your 1197 I would like to offer the use of a 998 unit touse also just to compare the algorithms between the two softwares.
I think the results could be interesting
I agree kosmo ...
I will contact you when I have the Y cable built ...
Rickie
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I agree kosmo ...
I will contact you when I have the Y cable built ...
Rickie
ok...
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I have the DI transducer installed and have the transducer switch to go between the SI and DI transducers. The DI images are much better than the ones using the SI transducer. Yes, it works with 1198, 1197 and 899. This picture of crappie in the tree was made with my 1197.
(http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss81/jimham82/Misc/S00773_zps281017f7.png) (http://s564.photobucket.com/user/jimham82/media/Misc/S00773_zps281017f7.png.html)
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Very good image Jim ...
Which DI xducer did you use for your setup ...
Did you use an additional 200/83 xducer with the AS SIDB Y cable ...??
Rickie