Author Topic: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI  (Read 8525 times)

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Offline muskie_madness

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Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« on: March 26, 2013, 08:04:03 PM »
First post here-excited to have jumped ships and come to the dark side :)  Here's my setup/dilemma.  I apologize for the long post, but being new to the brand and forum, I want to make sure I have it all figured out.  I previously ran two other brand units one at the bow and one at the console.  Neither were networked but both had GPS/map cards and independent transducers. 

Question 1:  Now that I've seen the light and changed brands, I will be putting a 858HD DI on the console and will run that transducer on the transom and plan on adding a 598ci HD SI to the bow and running that off the trolling motor.  Can both units be running at the same time without interfering with each other?  I could do this before and hate to not be able to do this again.  I fish on the bow and like my partner to be able to see whats going on by looking at the console.  Boat is 19' in length if that matters.  Will the different frequencies not allow the interference?

Question 2:  Is the GPS antenna for the 858 internal?  I swear the box said it was, website states external.  I haven't taken it out yet-open water is weeks away still in MN this year!

Question 3:  I've done a lot of reading the last few nights and have tried to figure out definitively if putting an SI transducer on a trolling motor will be ok?  I know I want to put a guard on it to keep it secure and safe.  I also know that when turning you will get the "venetian blind" effect.  I primarily fish bass and musky so am moving at a decent pace between 1-2 mph.  It looks to be preferred at 3-5.  Is my 1-2 mph fast enough to work or would I adjust the settings of the SI to stay at my pace?

Question 4:  When mounting my transducer to the trolling motor since I won't be using US2 anymore, is there a reference somewhere of how to mount it cleanly to a PowerDrive V2?  I want to make it professional looking and with the shaft on the PowerDrive sliding up and down, what is the trick for a great install without it looking like a mad science project?  I'll miss the US2 connectivity and clean install!

Question 5:  Besides interlink, the 3 preset buttons, and dual card slot-what am I missing by going to the 598 instead of the 798?  I'm used to moving waypoints occasionally with SD card between my old units.  I don't think I can justify the added expense between the unit and interlink components.

Queston 6:  What's a great tool to convert waypoints from Lowrance to Humminbird so I have all my spots back before I create millions more with SI?

Thanks in advance!  There looks to be some very smart individuals on this board and can't wait to learn from you all!






Offline RGecy

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 10:44:41 PM »
muskie,

Welcome to the forum. 

Quote
Question 1:  Can both units be running at the same time without interfering with each other?  I could do this before and hate to not be able to do this again.  I fish on the bow and like my partner to be able to see whats going on by looking at the console.  Boat is 19' in length if that matters.  Will the different frequencies not allow the interference?

Anytime you have two sonar units that use the same frequency on a boat and their sonar beams overlap; there is the chance that you will see sonar-to-sonar interference.  There are a lot of factors that go into whether this will happen, whether your sonar unit may be able to automatically filter them out or if you can manually filter them out.  I have seen where 20 foot bass boats with bow and transom mounted sonar have interference and yet our test boats with two transducers mounted side-by-side show no interference.  If you do this (and many do) just turn on and up the Noise Filter menu on the unit that is showing the sonar interference.  Not a 100% fix but it helps many times.  Further things to try would be to manually set the lower depth range (Lower Range menu) to a setting that is different than the other units automatic lower depth range setting.

Usually any sonar-to-sonar interference is seen on the 200kHz and 83kHz 2D sonar beams due to their conical shape and the way the beam spreads out.  Most do not understand that a 20 degree sonar beam reflects back towards the surface at that same 20 degrees, so in a water depth of 20 feet that 20 degree sonar beam may be covering 7 feet of the bottom but it covers 14 feet of the water surface (bottom composition and shape will affect this width as well).

Quote
Question 2:  Is the GPS antenna for the 858 internal?  I swear the box said it was, website states external.  I haven't taken it out yet-open water is weeks away still in MN this year!

858cHD DI has an external GPS

Quote
Question 3:  I've done a lot of reading the last few nights and have tried to figure out definitively if putting an SI transducer on a trolling motor will be ok?  I know I want to put a guard on it to keep it secure and safe.  I also know that when turning you will get the "venetian blind" effect.  I primarily fish bass and musky so am moving at a decent pace between 1-2 mph.  It looks to be preferred at 3-5.  Is my 1-2 mph fast enough to work or would I adjust the settings of the SI to stay at my pace?

SI on the trolling motor would be fine.  I am surprised though that you chose only to go with 858 DI on the console.  I think you will find you will be wanting the side imaging when pre scanning an area.  In my opinion, I would have gone with the 898 SI on the console and then the 597 DI or 788DI.  I will explain the 788 later.

Quote
Question 4:  When mounting my transducer to the trolling motor since I won't be using US2 anymore, is there a reference somewhere of how to mount it cleanly to a PowerDrive V2?  I want to make it professional looking and with the shaft on the PowerDrive sliding up and down, what is the trick for a great install without it looking like a mad science project?  I'll miss the US2 connectivity and clean install!

I cant speak specifically about the V2 since I have never done one, but I think you can make it work fairly easily without looking to much like a cluster ****!  Maybe some of the other guys can chime in on this for me and certainly search thru the image gallery, but here is a link to get you started.  http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=3692.msg21815#msg21815

Quote
Question 5:  Besides interlink, the 3 preset buttons, and dual card slot-what am I missing by going to the 598 instead of the 798?  I'm used to moving waypoints occasionally with SD card between my old units.  I don't think I can justify the added expense between the unit and interlink components.

They are virtually the same other than 798 has 360 imaging, ipilot link, and ethernet.  The last one I think is a biggie.  The ethernet capability would allow you to network the two units so you would be able to see the data from the console unit on the bow and vice versa.  You could still opperate independently, or shared.  Interlink will not do this.  It only shares the nav data.

Quote
Queston 6:  What's a great tool to convert waypoints from Lowrance to Humminbird so I have all my spots back before I create millions more with SI?

Humminbird PC will do this for you automatically.  You can find it here on the forum in the downloads secton or in you Humminbird account when you register your unit on the Humminbird website.

I hope that helps.  We look forward to seeing your install and answering any more questions you may have.

And by the way, you were on the dark side before you came to Humminbird!  Welcome to the good guys! ;)

Good luck,

Robert
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 10:47:05 PM by RGecy »
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Offline muskie_madness

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 07:44:55 AM »
Thanks for the information!

In regards to why I'm running SI at the bow instead of the console is a pure $$$$ factor and where I spend most of my time.  On a typical fishing trip, I'll spent 90% of my time at the bow.  The 10% of time at console is for snack breaks.  $$$$ wise, buying a new SI unit in the 800 series puts me at +$1,500 w/o map card.  I can get a 858 with DI and a 598 with SI for the same price as one 898SI unit.  I've been searching for a used unit for the bow but looks like everybody enjoys theirs and they are not easy to come by or are missing components.  After watching this segment on youtube:
Tips 'N Tricks 59: Humminbird Side Imaging on the Trolling Motor
the dock scanning feature would be very handy!

Does the external GPS have a lengthy cord or will I need an extension like Lowrance has you do?

Thanks Again!

Offline RGecy

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »
I certainly understand!  ;D  I am not as much a fisherman so I spend most of my time at the helm scanning!  8)

Good Luck and let us know how it turns out!

Robert
Humminbird Guru and Forum Administrator

Offline muskie_madness

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 09:08:42 PM »
Well as chance would have it, I picked up a used year old 798ci HD SI for only $650! Took back the 598.   So now I have a unit I can link-should I use the ethernet link over the interlink then?  Looks like more data can travel with ethernet.  Both units have independent GPS so would be sharing waypoints essentially. 

Offline RGecy

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 09:33:56 PM »
Ethernet offers more flexibility.  Interlink is only going to share waypoints etc.  Ethernet will allow you to share data between units like gps, and sonar data etc.
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Offline muskie_madness

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 08:04:23 PM »
Looking to get all my supplies together for mounting both units in boat so putting a checkist together. 

Is my current RAM mount regular size 1.5" ball large enough to support the 858 on console?  Looking at the heavier mount but seems excessive and for $100 is it necessary?

Will I need an additional transducer when running on plane or will the down imaging retain depth when running on plane at 50mph+? 

Will the traditional Humminbird trolling motor mount suffice on my V2 Powerdrive or do I need to look at an additional brand such as the Transducer Saver?


Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 07:36:29 AM »
If you can get the transducer mounted in a location that will not have any air bubbles flowing around the transducer than it can read at 50 mph+.

I would exchange the new and unused transom mount transducer for a trolling motor version one.  Call the Humminbird Customer Resource folks to set this up.

Forgot: I think that you will have to go with a heavier RAM mount.  Check and see what the RAM web sites recommends.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 07:37:46 AM by Humminbird_Greg »
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline Sam

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 07:05:38 PM »
Maybe I should start a new topic but will dive in and share my experience. Administrator said side by side transducers may not cause a problem.  I had a 300C Garmin already installed (frequency same as my new 598 Hum.) I mounted the 598 transducer on the other side of the stern from the Garmin. I have not had any interference. The transducer cables are running down opposite sides of the boat and attached to different power sources. I did not have to mess much with sensitivity.  The Garmin is console mounted and Hum is forward next to trolling mtr. Thought this may be of interest to others who are thinking of trolling mtr mounting.  As Admin. said, if I have a problem, I can reset my lower depth range.

Question 1 to Admin: When a beam covers 7' of bottom surface, it will come back to give a 14' surface coverage. Since a cone is funneled from a small beginning to a larger return destination, does this mean we are not receiving all the return images? Or are we getting all the images but they are condensed?

Question 2: I understand that Dual Beam + is 2D with it 80/200 khz. What constitutes 3D?

Question 3: Page 18 of the big book states that side imaging beams deliver both 455Khz and Dual Beam +. Is this what 3D is?

Question 4: Does Down Images operate on both 455 khz and Dual Beam?  Thanks.

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 12:40:21 PM »
Not the Admin but maybe I can answer your questions:

Q1: Depending on the width of the sonar beam, its angle to the lake bottom and the lake bottom composition; the sonar beam can reflect back and be 14 feet wide at the surface.  So, that does mean that you are not receiving all of the reflected sonar signal.  If you could give more specifics for this question it would help.
What is shown on the screen of the sonar unit is a condensed version of what it receives.  Whether we are talking conventional “2D’ sonar with a cone shaped beam or Si sonar with its narrow front-to-back but wide side-to-side beams, it all gets condensed into one vertical or horizontal row of pixels.

Q2: I’m not sure either unless you are referring to the 3D sonar units that Humminbird used to make.  These used multiple sonar beams (up to 11 on some units) to build a wire frame interpretation of the lake bottom.  Sonar returns from fish could be shown in sonar beam that received them, thereby giving some directional information to the user.

Q3: What is “the big book”?  Is this the operations manual for the 598 unit?  No, that would not be 3D sonar.

Q4: Down Imaging, in the 598 unit, is comprised of the two 455kHz Si sonar beams.  The Si sonar data is combined to give the Di sonar data.  The 2D DualBeam data is not in the Di sonar data that you see.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline Sam

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 05:32:05 PM »
The big book is the 183 p. 598ci HD SI Combo  Operations Manual.
Re Question 1 about giving you more specifics, I was trying to make sense of what Admin said about a 7' bottom cone returning 14'  of surface activity.
Re your answer to Q4. You said "The 2D Dual Beam data is not in the sonar data that you see." But on p. 32 of the big book, it states "The DI results are displayed in a picture like image on the screen in 2D format."  To me this is saying that Dual Beam data, in the DI view, produces the DI data. I guess we are saying the same thing, but in different words.

Offline erocks4u

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 08:32:30 PM »
Muskie, the link shows how I've hooked up an SI transducer to a V2.

http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=5602.msg35000#msg35000

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Running 598ci HD SI and 858HD DI
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 08:14:03 AM »
The big book is the 183 p. 598ci HD SI Combo  Operations Manual.
Re Question 1 about giving you more specifics, I was trying to make sense of what Admin said about a 7' bottom cone returning 14'  of surface activity.
Re your answer to Q4. You said "The 2D Dual Beam data is not in the sonar data that you see." But on p. 32 of the big book, it states "The DI results are displayed in a picture like image on the screen in 2D format."  To me this is saying that Dual Beam data, in the DI view, produces the DI data. I guess we are saying the same thing, but in different words.


Sam,
Q1: What he posted is correct.  If a sonar beam expands to cover 7 feet of the bottom it would (in a perfect world) reflect back upwards at that same angle and would than cover an area 14 wide at the surface.  If the sonar signal has enough energy left it will reflect again downwards and back up again and again… each time getting wider and wider.  So much of this depends on the bottom composition though.  If it were a very hard and flat bottom (like an old roadbed) it would produce many multiple sonar returns whereas a software bottom or one that is irregularly shaped would absorb or reflect away (think stealth technology here) most of the sonar energy.  Back in the paper chart and mechanical flasher days, the second or multiple returns are what some used to distinguish one bottom type from another.  It still works but most don't use this anymore since we have colors to show sonar signal strength.

Q4: No, the Di data is all Si sonar information that is shown in the same formatting as the DualBeam (2D) sonar is.  Meaning that it is show with the surface zero line at the top with the new sonar data on the right side and the historical data moving to the left.  This is the same formatting that we use for most of our 2D (conventional) sonar data.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com


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