Author Topic: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows  (Read 16382 times)

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Offline gooral

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597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« on: March 12, 2012, 04:10:20 AM »
Hi.

I got strange readings problem while moving over water which is lets say not more than 15-20 feet deep. Display on my unit is jumping up and down like crazy: from shallow alarm (set @ 2ft) to 60ft. Sometimes  picture on the screen is rendering bottom at 5 feet but readout says 50 feet.
Transducer is placed next to the propeller of my outboard (@ same level about a feet apart). Can this be created by exhaust of outboard?
If so why it doesn't happen at deeper water? I thought that outboard will only create clutter in the image no wrong depth readings...
PS not 100% sure now but i thing it happened also without outboard running.

Tried sensitivity and noise filter settings but it didn't help.


Offline George

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 05:06:15 AM »
gooral

It is possible that your transducer is too close to your prop, everything that I have read is that you need to be at least 15" to the right or left of the motor, because of water turbulence which has a lot of air bubbles causing the transducer to go nuts.

George

Offline Roddy

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 07:06:00 AM »
Dito George!! Less than 15 inch and the turbulence drive the reading nuts. Roddy
Scan,Scan and Rescan Roddy

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 03:45:33 PM »
Dito George!! Less than 15 inch and the turbulence drive the reading nuts. Roddy

ok but why does it not happening at greater depths at all?

Offline George

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 05:33:29 PM »
gooral

Maybe one of the issues is with the sensitivity settings being to high.  But still think you should move the transducer to the side.

Below is Doug has a nine part seminar on how to get the most out of the HB units.  Scroll down on his videos until you see them.  He has a lot of good information on all of his videos, they are worth a watch.

--->  http://www.dougvahrenberg.com/  <---

George

Offline sjefsrafsern

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 01:56:41 AM »
hi, try to set your fishfinder to 20-30 feet. so you get it locked and will see between 0-20 or 30 feet at all time and drive around those shallows to see if there is a thermal layer or something else in the water that confuses your unit. and like the guys abowe said try to move your transducer, even if it doesent mess up your depth readings you might lose a lot of other interesting information.  :)

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 04:43:14 AM »
Quote
Maybe one of the issues is with the sensitivity settings being to high.  But still think you should move the transducer to the side.
Stern of my boat is 30 inch wide - at the moment prop is about 11 inch apart from (centre-centre) transducer. And to shift it further apart will require rethinking entire design as i used entire width of timber available
this is first design and it should give you an idea about shape of the stern. Prop is roughly at the point where screw in the metal strip is - maybe few inches lower.


Ps and i wanted to do not drill holes in the hull (as it has buoyancy tank at the back and i don't want it to fill with water ;)

I'll have look at the webpage. thanks.

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 09:50:08 AM »
gooral,
First thing you need to do is answer some questions and do a little testing before breaking out the tools to move the transducer:

1. Confirm that this does or does not happen when the motor is running.
2. Check the software version that you are running in your 597ci HD DI unit.
3. What frequency settings (2D and DI) are you running when this happens?
4. Is there another sonar unit on your boat and if so does this still happen when you turn the second sonar unit off?
5. Is there anyone else that you know of that is running a Humminbird DI unit that would let you test your 597ci HD DI unit on their boat to see if the same thing happens or not?  You could also test their unit on your boat as well.

With an outboard motor the propeller is usually located aft of the transducer and so the 15-inch rule really does not apply here.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 10:09:59 AM »
Quote
4. Is there another sonar unit on your boat and if so does this still happen when you turn the second sonar unit off?
5. Is there anyone else that you know of that is running a Humminbird DI unit that would let you test your 597ci HD DI unit on their boat to see if the same thing happens or not?  You could also test their unit on your boat as well.

answer is NO to either of questions (friend has 9xx SI unit  but i don't know is it relevant).
Ps once it happened first time i thought it was created by other friends lowerance unit - but then i noticed it again.

Quote
1. Confirm that this does or does not happen when the motor is running.
2. Check the software version that you are running in your 597ci HD DI unit.
3. What frequency settings (2D and DI) are you running when this happens?

planing to spend weekend on water will certainly test all above. I'll get back tou you after weekend.

Quote
With an outboard motor the propeller is usually located aft of the transducer and so the 15-inch rule really does not apply here.

so is my transducer - there is literally 11inch space in between them.

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 11:20:08 AM »
Well I was hoping that you knew someone else with a Humminbird DI unit gooral as that would have made troubleshooting much easier but that is okay.  Just let us know what your on water testing shows.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 02:30:35 PM »
ok. it seems to happen only at certain grounds (rather hard with some weeds and around 2-10 maybe 15feet deep no matter 200-455kHz or sensitivity) and with outboard running. So unit seems to be fine but i need to rethink transducer fitting. (my guess is that unit is picking engine exhaust noise bouncing of bottom?
This is picture of keel of my boat (last foot or so of it).
My first thought was to box transducer in some sort of tough metal container and screw it to the side of the keel but i guess it will have to be super tough as some of lakes here are full of hidden rocks (Few times we had to leave the boat to push it off so it is possible that entire weight of the boat + load will be supported by it) and such a construction will be probably creating all sorts of interference.
ps: With unit i got something which looks like this:

XIH 9 DI T
Transducers
710225-1
In-Hull Mount Transducer 

what is in-hull refers to?

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2012, 02:50:52 PM »
In hull refers to a transducer that mounts in the hull of the boat and not on the outside such as the transom.
In hull can be the type that shoots thru the hull and is mounted (usually epoxied) to the hull.
There are also thru hull transducers that require a hole to be drilled thru the hull.

Shoot thru the hull transducers require certain types of hull material and a mounting process that is not very forgiving if not done right.

This forum contains information on thru the hull transducers.  Use the search tab at the top of the main menu..
Chuck

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 09:06:54 AM »
So does this happen only when the motor is running or only when the boat is moving above XX mph speed?

What software version is your 597ci HD Di unit running goral?
It may be that all you have to do is update the software.


That XIH stands for Transducer (Xducer) Inside the Hull.  This will not work on your wooden hulled boat.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 12:09:08 PM »

Quote
So does this happen only when the motor is running or only when the boat is moving above XX mph speed?

it looks it happens even with motor idling on neutral.

Quote
What software version is your 597ci HD Di unit running goral?
It may be that all you have to do is update the software.

5.470

Quote
That XIH stands for Transducer (Xducer) Inside the Hull.  This will not work on your wooden hulled boat.

it is made of glass fibre (only looks like wooden) if it makes any difference. (but it is quite thick 1/5 inch?).

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 12:12:25 PM »
Try setting your depth manually.  Take it off of automatic...
Also if you choose thru the hull you should be fine.  Just make sure to do the epoxy process right.  No air bubbles in it..
Chuck
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 12:14:08 PM by sonar2000 »

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2012, 09:12:17 AM »
You are a few software releases behind (4 to be exact).  Some of these made changes to the way that the 597ci HD DI unit reads the water depth when in shallow water over a hard bottom.  You should update your unit to the current 6.090 software.  If you still get the same problem only when the motor is running than it could be some pretty strong main motor interference and we can discuss options if the newer software does not help.

That’s fiberglass?  I did think it was wood and thought I saw a knot in the wood and wood grain.  An inside-the-hull transducer will work through fiberglass at up to an inch in thickness.  The issue you will face is where you can mount it that has a relatively flat area and also access to the inside of the hull.  With the curves and cut of that hull you may be hard pressed to find such an area or may have to look at some sort of miniature transducer bath design to make up for the curved hull.  I have an idea I can share if you are thinking about going that route, but try the updated software first.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2012, 05:18:22 AM »
my bad luck is keeping close with me. Last weekend i destroyed prop in my outboard and all tests were not relevant as i could see it disturbing water way more than before - i hope to get new prop next weekend and test it once again.

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 04:57:49 AM »
Due to few factors (bad weather, holidays, busted outboard, exams at college etc ;) i had delay in testing my setup.
Either after replacing propeller or re installing soft my problem got even worst (personal record of unit showing 1000 feet+ of water on about 2-3 feet of actual depth). But i also discovered that it is caused by outboard (slower it revs less often depth readings reach stupid levels).
And as i can not move transducer any further away from outboard (i don't want to expose it to damage caused by drifting into something)
I'll have to investigate a possibility of using it through hull. Short question is: does it have to be bonded to hull from inside or just lets say bolted to it? (as bolting will allow me to remove it without damaging).

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 09:01:32 AM »
Does this happen when the outboard motor is off?  This could be main motor interference.

The DI transducer can be bolted to the inside of the hull but it would need something like water to allow the sonar signal to transition to the hull and into the water.  Attached is a drawing of a PVC pipe device that you could use for this.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 01:04:08 PM »
Does this happen when the outboard motor is off?  This could be main motor interference.

less revs on outboard less funny readings - on iddle they almost disappearing (of course not sure is this because of slow speed or lack of propeller interference)

Quote
The DI transducer can be bolted to the inside of the hull but it would need something like water to allow the sonar signal to transition to the hull and into the water.  Attached is a drawing of a PVC pipe device that you could use for this.

thanks a lot.

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 02:27:32 AM »
I'm confused now. Yesterday I saw same sort of things happening without engine running at all (no other boats/electronic equipment in few miles radius) and a boat in slow drift of about 0.5 mph?. I was in shallow bay with believed soft bottom with some vegetation over it. Readings were jumping in one particular place from 18 to few feet.
I think i got it recorded but befeore posting it on yt so i can show it to you i need to download some video converter for my phone.
Ps i should have them recorded in my track.

Offline ITGEEK

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 12:06:11 PM »
gooral:
If you haven't checked this yet, transducer should be more or less
level, with you in the boat, and the boat fully loaded.
If it's skewed front to back, or left to right, then readings
won't be as good as you can get.

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 02:54:10 PM »
gooral:
If you haven't checked this yet, transducer should be more or less
level, with you in the boat, and the boat fully loaded.
If it's skewed front to back, or left to right, then readings
won't be as good as you can get.

Well i can't imagine it being such an issue on 3 or 6 feet of water (not to mention that it is fine on deeper water). as i worked out some time ago that AFAIR 20 degree angle on like 60feet of water will give you like 3feet error (it would take quite angle to get readings off that much as I'm experiencing) However i will check an actual angle next time on water. It also not explains skipping readings - it would be constantly wrong... 

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2012, 11:53:34 AM »
goral, how deep was the vegetation when this happened?

Have you tried adjusting the Surface Clutter menu to a higher setting and/or changing the Water Type menu (try the Salt deep or shallow settings).

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2012, 01:27:54 PM »
i think i have surface clutter at max. and minimum depth set to 1 feet to make sure no clutter shows on the screen.
 Ithink this particular part of bottom was rather clear of long vegetation.
there is video (in split view both "2D" sonars running):
Video0021

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2012, 02:01:47 PM »
Try changing the Water Type menu to see if that will help.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2012, 02:58:27 PM »
What do the water type settings do?  In other words what does a salt water setting do that will improve fresh water displays and vice versa?

Chuck

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2012, 08:41:39 AM »
It changes the water depth calculation formula which won’t make any big difference but it also changes some of the surface filtering as there is more surface clutter and debris in salt water versus fresh water.  Not sure what other changes there may be.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline sonar2000

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 05:04:53 PM »
Is that surface clutter due to salt density or from possible salt water trash as in plant life?
Chuck

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2012, 09:20:50 AM »
I believe it is surface clutter as in plant/zoological/air bubbles and not salt density.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2012, 01:43:04 PM »
that would make sense.


chuck

Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2012, 07:46:42 AM »
hi guys. whatever it is it seems to be appearing only on 3 places (2 different lakes). So after all i guess i need to accept it.
PS. if i'm moving "at speed" (hehe this is 7mph with 6HP outboard i guess this is considered to be a "power drifting" in USA ;)
and have both 2D frequencies running one on the left (200kHz?) is totaly covered by distorsions (other seems to be fine). Is this normal or should i move my transducer onto a hull anyway?

Offline gramps50

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2012, 09:55:57 AM »
My transducer is mounted on my TM and the 1st trip out with my 597ci HD DI I had the same issue the depth would go nuts or not be accurate at all. Didn't do it till I started messing with the setting. No sure what I got out of whack but I did a Factory Reset and all was well. It will change some when the water is choppy.

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2012, 11:13:56 AM »
hi guys. whatever it is it seems to be appearing only on 3 places (2 different lakes). So after all i guess i need to accept it.
PS. if i'm moving "at speed" (hehe this is 7mph with 6HP outboard i guess this is considered to be a "power drifting" in USA ;)
and have both 2D frequencies running one on the left (200kHz?) is totaly covered by distorsions (other seems to be fine). Is this normal or should i move my transducer onto a hull anyway?

On the Split Screen Sonar View the frequency on the left is the 83kHz.  The lower frequencies are more likely to show surface clutter and zooplankton stronger than the higher 200kHz frequency will.  I would not move the transducer for this.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
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Offline gooral

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2012, 03:37:13 PM »
thanks.
from all forums It is probably most helpfull one.

Offline CHOOhonets

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Re: 597 ci hd di strange behaviour on shallows
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 05:27:25 AM »
I had exactly the same problem and the solution was to set the Surface clutter setting to more than 1-3! 5-7 is OK.


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