Author Topic: Here we go again  (Read 14388 times)

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Offline Jolly Roger

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Here we go again
« on: June 28, 2009, 03:15:27 PM »
Went out yesterday evening after my crew deserted me and decided to sleep at home instead of staying overnight on the boat with daddy  >:(.

Since the weather had cleared up and the wind dropped to zero, I decided to scan the area near my mooring place and so I took off. After having the ducer adjusted a bit to get better fish arches (the kids love to watch them on the display), I wondered why the screen seemed a bit too dark, but didn't find out why until I watched the records this evening on Martin's HummVee: All records were made with 262 kHz  ::)!

Whatever, after setting course, I didn't believe my eyes when I looked on the screen after being out for a while:

ila_rendered

WHAT THE HECK??

Looked like a hull, so I drove over it a couple of times and after getting this picture, I knew what I will do today.

Donned my dive gear this afternoon and went down to check what I discovered with the good ole 981.
It is a wooden hull about 8 - 10 metres long and it's gotta be very old. The planks are pretty thick and crude. The metal parts seem also very crude. The way the hull is build reminded me of a boat I saw some years ago in a museum. The bottom is flat and the ribs are massive. What I could feel through the mud seemed like a mast that is laying inside the hull. Something like a sack is stored in the rear end and I guess it's some sort of cargo, I don't know.

I'm gonna call the guys in the museum in Constance to see, if they are interested to explore the wreck. My feeling is that this might be a very very old boat and maybe the archaeologists will have a use for this thing. If not: Another wreck to dive at, hehe  ;D.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:47:31 AM by Jolly Roger »
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Offline RGecy

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 04:41:49 PM »
Harry,

Thats awesome!  What a great find.  Let us know what happens and if you get any pictures.  Any idea what was in the sack?  Gold or Silver maybe?

Robert
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Offline dybvad417

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 04:45:40 PM »
Achtung baby.  You ar a lucky man.

Whit all those wrecks, there cant be much water left in Lake Constance  :o

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 04:22:17 AM »
Harry,

That's awesome!  What a great find.  Let us know what happens and if you get any pictures.  Any idea what was in the sack?  Gold or Silver maybe?

Robert

Gosh Robert,
then I would already have an IP address on the Bermudas  ;).
Don't know what is in there, but it's propably some cargo that was transported over the Lake in former times. Like Salt (no, salt would have dissolved?), wheat, corn, really no clue. It felt solid, but I didn't want to explore further due to the fact that I could run into trouble if I turn the whole thing upside down and later it turns out that the wreck is of "culture historical" interest. The laws here in our state are very strict about the issue of plundering such sites.
The other thing is that I don't want to destroy anything that might be interresting for the archaeologists. Been on some sites where the bonediggers were in action and it was quite interesting to see them work and listen to their explanations. So far there is just ONE wreck that was salvaged and brought to a museum (they even remodeled the museum to get the thing displayed) and maybe this is something they will also recover, who knows.

Got a call from the head of the local archaeological office this morning, Dr. Helmut Schlichtherle.
Looks like I stirred up some dust. Dr. Schlichterle wants me to go out again with one of his exploration/research divers. That's fine with me, 'cause I'd like to dive the wreck more and if the guys decide that it's no big deal and just another ordinary wreck, I can can do this with a clean conscious.

I'll keep you posted about what's going on and if my IP address changes....---> well, then we all know what was in the sack  ;D

Regards from Lake constance
Harry
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Offline keizerh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 02:37:35 PM »
 :)

Even then, Keep in contact.

Hendrik

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 04:56:28 AM »
I'll do, Hendrik, I'll do,

I don't think that there are treasures to find at the wrecks around here. At least nothing that can be sold without getting trouble.

The head of the research divers called me yesterday evening and we were talking for half an hour to arrange a dive next week. Depending on the weather, we'll go on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm already curious what he will say.

I got clearance to dive the wreck and make some pictures and videos, " but don't start taking parts off and do not explore the ground! And please, do not tell the position to anyone!".

"Roger that!"

I hope I can post some pictures tomorrow.

So long
Harry
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Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 07:44:05 AM »
Update

Had the meeting with the archaeologist, Doctor Schlichtherle and Doctor Mainberger, yesterday afternoon and that turned out in a way that I haven't expected.

After introducing each other, the two gentlemen were very interested in my doings and how and why I found the wreck. They asked a ton of questions and I wondered what this is all about. I started to wonder if they want to offer a job and this is part of the interview, when all of a sudden one of them stated that they are NOT happy about the fact that there are Side Scan Sonars on the market for that price!

Huh?? Whaaaat?

Their explanation is reasonable from their point of view: Each Side Imaging unit in private hands raises the danger, that someone finds a wreck that might be interesting for them. They're afraid that this leads to the destruction of important information if people start diving these wrecks and start tearing things off or exploring the ground for treasures or souvenirs.

Next was a lecture about state's law:
Every attempt to find unknown or explore known historic monuments is illegal, if the person who is doing so does not have a written permission from official side.

In other words, if I would state in public that I'm scanning the Lake's ground in order to find "treasures" or historical wrecks, I can get sued for that  ::).

After making clear that I'm a cop and that I don't have any interest in doing such things and the only purpose of my enterprise is to find interesting dive spots or help my fellow colleagues of the Water Police in finding things in the water, the gentlemen seemed assured and we watched the video which my buddy had made.

The gentlemen were impressed about what they saw and started immediately to speculate about the wreck.
First of all, it is defiantly very old, 200 years at least! From what they have seen they came to the conclusion that this wreck might be a "hunter" or "hunting" ship which were used as coast guard or police boats. These boats were rowed and not as big as the cargo sailing ships used during the middle ages, but fast and the bigger ones were even armed with cannons.

Now here's the kicker:
These boats are mentioned in historic literature and can be seen on old drawings, but none has ever been discovered! Wouldn't that be nice or what?

Doctor Mainberger will go for some dives in the next weeks and I hope he'll find out more about this wreck.

Regards from Lake Constance
Harry
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Offline keizerh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 10:22:20 AM »
Exiting !

I agree, that the SI must be more expensive.
At least the 981 and 987, so we can easily sell them and buy an 1197

hendrik

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 11:56:36 AM »
Hahaha Hendrik,
that was a good one!
You gotta be working in marketing or as a salesmanager, right??
I wonder how the guys would have looked, if I had a 1197 to make a demo instead of a 981!
Propably would have ended up directly in jail  :o

Best wishes
Harry
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Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 07:47:43 AM »
I think that they would have thrown you into a deep hole if you had the 1197 Harry!  Of course if they did, we would have to change your "Mug Shot" picture!   ::) ;) :D ;D

Keep us posted on this.  I think it appropriate that you (“a cop”) should find a 200+ year old police boat.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 07:49:47 AM by Humminbird_Greg »
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 01:24:17 PM »
Thanks for the flowers Greg!

Being a cop, I couldn't leave this "case" alone and did some investigation about lost ships and boats in this part of the lake.

Not very successfull what the middle ages concerns, but there are reports about two tragedies that happened in 1904 and 1906.
1904 were six lives lost, apparently the boat capsized, but didn't sink. 1906 five people died and the boat sunk. I checked pictures from boats of this era, but they look different from the wreck.

Let's see what the specialists find out.

So long
Harry
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Offline RGecy

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 09:41:35 PM »
Harry,

Exciting stuff!  Let us know the outcome when you know.  It would be cool if they raise it up and preserve it for others to see.

Keep the picts coming as well! 

Thanks,

Robert
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Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 12:18:14 PM »
It would be cool if they raise it up and preserve it for others to see.
Keep the picts coming as well!
Thanks,
Robert

Oh yeah Bob,
that would be really cool if the wreck would be raised and put on display.
But Doc Schlichtherle cautioned my expectations about this.
Getting the wreck raised is one part of the story which is already expensive.
But getting it preserved is the other part of the gig and that costs much much more.
I doubt that there is enough money in their budget to get something like this achieved.
Maybe if the wreck would be something very extraordinary and endangered if it is left in place, the government would raise the money for such an operation.

Doc Schlichtherle mentioned some other options:

  • Leave the wreck in place as an "open museum".
    Divers would have the chance to go down and look at it, take pictures and videos.
    My feeling about this: Max. five years and the wreck would be destroyed, cause there are enough idiots around who would take souvenirs or aren't able to keep their buoyancy above the ground / wreck.
  • Covering the wreck with some sort of foil and sand or gravel
    I dunno, my gut feeling tells me that this is too much weight and pressure for the wooden structure
  • Vacuuming a trench beside the wreck, push / place the wreck into it and let the sediment cover the wreck completely. Sounds better from the weight side, but how can one get a whole wreck pushed into a trench??

I'm not a specialist in this area, but I guess these guys know how to handle such a case.
I'd really like to see this thing on dry land in a museum and I'm curious like hell what is inside the hull.

Andy and I didn't make any pictures, but a video. I tried to cut out some screenshot from it, but the quality isn't a real kicker. Took me some headscratches to get it done, but better than nothing  ;)

The bow in total from above. Note the hole in the center board and the strange looking thing on the portside.

ila_rendered

A closeup from the bow with the hole. Guess the Forestay of the mast went through here.

ila_rendered

This one is the strange looking detail on the portside of the bow. I think it's a belaying pin with a chain around it. Maybe the anchor was attached here?

ila_rendered

The stern. It's approx. 40 cm wide and obviously there are some parts already gone. Hopefully they are buried in the sediment underneath.

ila_rendered

Here's my favourite one. Robert Ballard couldn't have it done better than Andy, hehe.

ila_rendered


Enjoy it!
Harry
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WE SCAN!

Offline RGecy

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 07:32:06 PM »
Harry,

Awesome picts!  Wood is very difficult to preserve but it could be done pretty easily on such a small vessel.

Keep the picts coming!

Robert
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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 02:42:50 AM »
Wow! This is so interesting. Please keep us up to date.
One of my quests is to try to find the remains of the Windermere ferry that sank on a stormy October night  in 1635, leading to the deaths of 47 people and 6 horses. No pictures survive, but it's believed to be basically a large wooden rowing boat. Must be quite big to fit 47 people, seven horses (a horse was the only survivor) and possibly one/two carriages as well on that fateful night.

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2009, 04:32:30 AM »
Indeed Kevin,
it is very intersting to explore such things. The deeper one gets into the material, the more questions arise.

Concerning this particular wreck, I'm still waiting to get some news from the archaeologists. But that again depends on when Doc. Mainberger has some time for a dive. The more I watch the video we made, the more details I see, the more I feel the temptation to go back for another dive and see what I might have missed on the dives before. Especially the stuff which is still inside the hull and the parts and stuff that is propably laying around the wreck is very tempting.

But I'll leave it to the specialists to have a closer look. And I still hope that the wreck might get raised and conserved to look at it in a museum.


1635?
Man that's a long time ago! Discovering the ferry and explore it would be a real adventure.
Good luck and keep us posted!

Best wishes
Harry
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WE SCAN!

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 11:45:34 PM »
Update:

Finally Doc. Mainberger had the time for a dive and we were out yesterday to dive.

After locating the wreck, he took the exact position and went down take his first look. He came back to the surface after 20 minutes and told me his thoughts:

He's irritated by the good condition of the wreck, especially the wood. He thinks it's oak, but hasn't seen planks in such a good condition before.
From the way how far the wreck is silted in, he thinks that it is from the middle ages.

Next step will be more diving in the first week of November. Maybe they'll start to get the silt out of the wreck to estimate if it is possible to get it raised.
Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Regards / Harry
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 12:54:53 AM by Jolly Roger »
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Offline RGecy

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2009, 02:51:11 AM »
Harry, glad to hear something is happening with the wreck.  Wow, middle ages!

Thanks for keeping us informed.  Any new picts of the boat?

Robert
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IRC Kevin

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2009, 05:40:31 AM »
Middle Ages- Awsome! Could this be one of the oldest intact wrecks found in inland waters in Germany?

Offline keizerh

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2009, 10:25:54 AM »
Hmm,

......He's irritated?????????

Seems to be a special oldie.
Overhere a friend of mine  is scanning for 17 century VOC wrecks. They are a lot more fallen apart.

hendrik


Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2009, 01:14:25 AM »
Middle Ages- Awsome! Could this be one of the oldest intact wrecks found in inland waters in Germany?

That is one possibility Kevin. The other would be, that this wreck isn't that old, but is heavily silted in for whatever reasons.

I'll try to have a look on old photographs from 1900 + in the city's archive. The way the hull is built and especially how the upper plank looks like is very strange to me. Maybe these planks were still common around 1900. Than it might be the boat that sunk in 1906.
Perhaps I can find out that the boat from 1906 didn't sink as well. Than it will become extremely interesting.....

But first of all, we have to do some raindances here. The lake level is extremely low and if it falls further like this, I doubt that there will be enough water in November and I'll have to get the boat out. The Doctor doesn't have a boat which is suitable for diving for this time of the year. So I agreed to use my boat for the exploration (remember the phrase "let's take your boat" Bob?? ;D).

The other alternative: The lake drops for another 20 metres  :o. Then there would be no boat necessary and a pair of rubber boots will do.... 8)

Regards / Harry
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 04:30:38 AM by Jolly Roger »
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Offline dybvad417

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 11:04:45 AM »
Hello

Have you ever read this:

Outubro 29, 2004
Lake Constance is historical ships' graveyard
IOL, October 19 2004

Constance, Germany - Archaeologists believe Lake Constance is a huge ships' graveyard for historical vessels dating back to ancient times.

Martin Mainberger of the regional office for the preservation of historical monuments said Tuesday 50 shipwrecks have already been identified in Lake Ueberling, a northern arm of Lake Constance.

Underwater archaeologists from Europe and the United States are currently meeting at Constance in southern Germany as part of an international conference on underwater archaeology in Zurich.

The experts are unsure how many ships may be lying on the bed of Lake Constance which borders Germany, Switzerland and Austria.

Researchers only began to realise just what historical treasures were hidden in the lake when a 14th-century load sailboat was discovered in 1992 at the northern bank near Immenstaad.

"It is only a question of time before an antique ship from Roman times is found," said archaeologist Helmut Schlichtherle. Even dug-out canoes dating back more than 2 000 years could be on the bed, he said.



 ;) ;)  go get it 

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 01:50:54 PM »
Wow  :o!!
Never read this before. That's one hell of an article! From where did you get this?

;) ;)  go get it 


Maybe I already got it??

Let's see what they'll find out in November!

Regards / (exited) Harry
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Offline dybvad417

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 09:04:40 AM »
Found it here:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1098208802164B265#more


***********************************

Have you read this one:  Schiffswracks im Bodensee

http://www.ufg.uni-freiburg.de/d/publ/wracks.html


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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2009, 01:04:52 AM »
Thanks for the links!

I've read the second one already and it's amazing to me, how many wrecks have been found in the past in the other parts of the lake.

It looks good for the dives in November what the water level concerns. The rain in the last couple of days brought the level back up a little:
http://www2.lubw.baden-wuerttemberg.de/public/hvz/
Hopefully there will be a little more rain in the next two weeks so the level stays above 2,80 m. Otherwise I'll have to get the boat out.

Regards / Harry
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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 08:54:08 AM »
This is really interesting, Harry and making me wonder what could be found in Windermere, as it's also been used for transport since Roman times. Have there been any differences between the sonar pictures of ancient and modern wrecks?

Offline wizzo86

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 09:30:47 AM »
man,,, how do we convert the articles to english...... lol

IRC Kevin

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 09:47:21 AM »
man,,, how do we convert the articles to english...... lol

Try getting Google 'translate' onto your toolbar.

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 11:59:54 AM »
This is really interesting, Harry and making me wonder what could be found in Windermere, as it's also been used for transport since Roman times.
I bet my rear end, that Doctor Mainberger's theory holds water for Windermere as well.

Have there been any differences between the sonar pictures of ancient and modern wrecks?

Yes, there have been differences Kevin. The modern wrecks were visible with more details. That's due to the fact that these are not as deep silted in as the old wreck.

Here are two shots of the two small sail boats I've found in May.

ila_rendered

ila_rendered

Here's the ancient wreck in SI view

ila_rendered


Regards / Harry
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 03:39:10 PM by Jolly Roger »
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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2009, 10:23:08 AM »
Thanks for that, Harry.

Offline Jolly Roger

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2009, 01:07:36 PM »
Continued here:

http://forums.sideimagingsoft.com/index.php?topic=469.0

Regards and enjoy it
Harry
YES,......
WE SCAN!


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