Author Topic: SI transducer placement on Aluminum  (Read 19357 times)

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Offline 4d-rock

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SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« on: May 09, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »
Hey guys,

I mentioned it within another thread that I was going to be posting for advice on transducer placement and here it is.  I have a Misty River Aluminum boat that I will be installing a HB 997c SI on.  I've taken some pictures of my transom and marked it up a bit to help illustrate my thoughts/ideas.

Pic#1 - The full transom, don't mind how dirty the boat is.  I haven't gotten a chance to clean it since I bought and transported it.
Pic#2 - Right side of transom, there was an old transducer mounted on the two screws in the green circle.  The red circle is the mounting location I am proposing. 
Pic#3 - Side view of transom with same circles.
Pic#4 - Under view to give you an idea of the rivets.  The orange lines are each a line of rivets.  You can see that the old transducer was installed just beside a line, and my proposed location is in the middle between the big gap in rivets.  You can also see that there is a double line of rivets underneath the left side of the green circle, which is one reason I was iffy on putting the the transducer there.

I've been thinking about mounting some polyethylene as a transducer plate to help with the tweaking and minimize holes in the boat.  I would screw the board down, but what would you recommend for screw hole sealant?  I've heard good things about 3M 5200, would that work good in my situation?

Lastly, the used 997c I bought came with the splitting cable to use a high speed transducer.  And I just happen to have an un-used transducer from a HB 570.  Should I just install the SI first and try to get readings on plane from tweaking positioning?  And if it doesn't work out, look into running the second transducer?  Or would I be better off with installing both right from the start?  My only concern with this is if I mount the SI transducer in the red circle, I would probably be putting the other one very close, if not on top of the trailer support beam.  That would be of risk of damage when loading up.

So that's my story, I'm sure you guys will be able to steer me in the right direction.

I appreciate everyone's time, patience, and suggestions.

Thanks



Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 05:29:06 PM »
I would try installing just the HDSi transducer to begin with at your green circle location.  If needed you can add the XNT-9-20-T transducer from the 570 unit later – but I would install it on the port side of the motor to get it as far away from the HDSi transducer as I could get it.

If you can, go with a thicker piece of that poly board or double up where you will mount it.  The farther away from the transom the more likely you get the HDSi transducer into clean water.  Of course you have to take into account your motor blocking part of the left Si beam too.  You do have power tilt/trim on your motor don’t you?  If you can make it wide enough you may be able to extend it towards the centerline in case you want to try the HDSi transducer in between those two rows of rivets.  It would place the HDSi transducer a little lower to which can help with the 2D sonar.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 06:19:41 PM »
Thanks Greg.  But I was planning on installing in the red circle, where you say green.  Did you mix it up or did you mean me to install it in the old transducer location next to the row of rivets?

I was leaning towards just trying to get the HDSI transducer to work for all speeds before installing the second.

And yes that motor has power trim, which I understand I'll most likely have to trim up when using th SI to scout.

Offline calli1

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 10:18:42 PM »
I will answer you question.  I have my 1198 on a aluminum boat...18ft.  I have it placed about 16 to 18 inches from the motor on the drivers side.  As for you using the S I Ducer and running at all speeds....it won't happen on a aluminum boat unless you have a pad on that aluminum boat.  I've studied...moved and reworked my S I Ducer.  I also have a 2 D ducer on the opposite side of the boat.  Yes...my S I ducer does pic it up when in the water and moving.  My unit works great.  If you install the unit correctly...about 5 to 7 mph is all the speed you will get.  These units and ducers are made for search and not as much speed.  The 2 D Ducer is your speed ducer.  I've even placed my 2 D Ducer inside the boat and the hull...sanding away the paint...still worked but not as good.  Good luck with this...plan on the 2 D Ducer though for speed, depth and contour ....and if the S I Unit Ducer is installed correctly on the aluminum boat...it will be out of the water while going down the lake.

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 09:26:55 AM »
Hey Calli1,
What do you mean by "a pad" on the aluminum boat.  Are you talking about some sort of spacer or transducer mounting plate?

And yes, putting the second trandsducer on the other side of the boat could be a good option.

So you are saying that the bottom of the transducer shouldn't be lower than the bottom hull of the boat where it is installed, therefore not in the water when up on plane?

Anyone have a comment or recommendation on the screw sealer (3M 5200 or 4000 or other)?


Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 10:53:27 AM »
I’ve always used a marine grade silicone on screw holes.

Yes, I meant the green circled area as this would put it just a little deeper in the water and sometimes that little bit could be the difference between the unit ready at speed and not.  With the mounting plate I would even go farther towards the motor just to try and get the transducer a little deeper in the water.

Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 01:12:04 PM »
Greg,
So are you saying that the turbulence from the two lines of rivets will be minimal, and that the placement would be better off lower, with the rivets, than higher without the rivets?

I've attached another picture.  I've outlined the potential location of the poly plate.  What I could do is install the SI transducer in the green location based on your recommendation, then if I need to, add the second transducer in the red circle where it should have minimal turbulence from rivets.  I think that would be enough spacing, and with the narrow cones of the 2D, it shouldn't hit the SI transducer.

I do kind of like that idea of putting the 2D on the other side, but then I would be mounting two plates and I'd rather just the one on the back.

Also, I've picked up some 3M 5200 but it says good for wood and fiberglass, is that the wrong stuff? 

Offline MTBob

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 02:27:56 PM »
Unless you never - ever - want to remove the poly mounting pad, DO NOT use 3M 5200.  It is nearly impossible to remove.  Google 3M 5200 on this forum and the web and read the reviews. 

You may want to use 3M 4000 or Boat Life http://boatlife.com/life-seal.html?SID=2c30c8c29bb828d3fee537640addff9a.

Also, see this thread in a Northern Lite camper forum & follow the links:  http://www.northern-lite.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=682&hilit=sealant
Bob

Offline Yrral3215

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 05:50:56 PM »
I have to disagree with Bob. 5200 is the stuf to use precisely because it never gives up. When I seal something on my boat I want it to stay sealed - forever. If i was mounting a plate on the back I would use 5200 for that very reason. Its the one caulk type product that you can be sure will last under water - salt or fresh.

Also, its not that hard to get off or remove parts. Its just silicone caulk after all.

Offline Yrral3215

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 05:53:59 PM »
Almost forgot - I just mounted my new 598 si transducer on my aluminum boat more or less in the green circle area. I set it about 1/8" inch lower than recommended and it reads just fine on plane in switchfire max mode. Its fuzzy but I can still easily see the bottom contour. So a mounting plate isnt always needed.

YMMV :)

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 10:56:54 AM »
So it sounds like if I use marine grade silicone, 3m 4000, or 3M 5200 it is going to do the job.  Just with varying levels of strength and difficulty of removal. 
I'm not sure if I'd ever want to remove the poly board once it's on there.  Do it right the first time and then all you do is change out the accessories mounted on it.  Only thing I'm not a huge fan of is that the 5200 takes 2 days to no longer be tacky, and a full week to set.  I'll contemplate it a bit more and will just have to make a decision, but it seems that as long as it's done right they all should work.

Also, good to hear that you got it working Yrral, was there lines of rivets directly under where you mounted it?  Or are the rivet patterns different on your boat?  When you say 1/8" lower, is that in comparison to the recommended height shown in the manual where the template corner his the bottom of the hull?  So you don't use a mounting plate?  You just mount your transducers straight into the transom?

Thanks


Offline Yrral3215

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 12:37:16 PM »
There is a fast set version of 5200 - I forget the designation but Home Depot and ACE hardware carry both types near me. I use the fast set on non-critical stuff - like that plate.

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 04:11:00 PM »
Not positive but I think the 3M 4000 is the fast set stuff.  I'm leaning towards going to exchange the 5200 and go with the 4000.
Any thoughts on the rest of my questions?

Offline Yrral3215

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2013, 07:16:32 PM »
I just checked and the fast 5200 is 5200 fast set :) Same number. 4000 is different stuff all together.

Offline Yrral3215

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2013, 07:21:42 PM »
Here is an application chart for all the Marine 3M products. You can choose for yourself :)

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/howtos/sealantchart.pdf

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 07:58:50 PM »
Gotcha, I'll take a look at the chart. Thanks

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 10:04:13 AM »
Greg, I'm not sure if you might have missed my question up in one of my previous posts but I was wondering if you could comment on it.

On the last picture I posted I changed the locations a bit, and based on your suggestion was wondering if the turbulence from the two lines of rivets would be minimal, or at least, to the point that the placement would be better off lower, with the rivets, than higher without the rivets?

Thanks

Offline Humminbird_Greg

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 09:24:34 AM »
I’ve been busy conducting training classes 4d-rock but am taking a few minutes to be able to answer yours and others questions while my student takes a test (hope they pass!).

Yes, I think that you will have a better chance in the green circled position even though there are lines of rivets just to each side of that location.  I would install the HDSi transducer and see how well you can get it to perform at high boat speeds before adding the second 2D sonar transducer.  I’m worried that if you mount it where you are thinking that it will block some of the right Si sonar.  You may have to install a second mounting plate on the other side of the boat (same location) to minimize the Si sonar blockage.  Hopefully you can get the lone HDSi transducer to work well enough at high boat speeds.
Greg Walters at Humminbird
gwalters@johnsonoutdoors.com

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 04:00:30 PM »
Thanks for your time and suggestions Greg.  I will most likely try to install the HDSI transducer first and see what I can get out of that, then go from there.

Offline strawdg

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 04:44:45 PM »
Thanks for your time and suggestions Greg.  I will most likely try to install the HDSI transducer first and see what I can get out of that, then go from there.

As I mentioned in my thread on the G3 installation, I mounted mine in almost the same location as your green circled area. That is between the lengthwise rows of rivets on my hull, closer to the 'left row' of rivets.

I haven't lost bottom reading at speed yet in my final location.....
Haven't noticed any side image blocking from the motor but haven't really tested a lot yet.

I did originally mount WAY too low the first try because I was over worried about the double row of rivets running the width of the hull, the thing gave great 2D readings at speed there, but was throwing water 3 feet into the air...... ??? ::)

Straw
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 04:49:07 PM by strawdg »

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 05:46:06 PM »
Thanks Strawdg,
I had been following your thread as well and it's good to know that I theoretically should be able to do it. 

So your motor doesn't block the SI at all?  Did you trim the motor up or was it good at normal running angle?

Offline strawdg

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 09:03:28 PM »
Thanks Strawdg,
I had been following your thread as well and it's good to know that I theoretically should be able to do it. 

So your motor doesn't block the SI at all?  Did you trim the motor up or was it good at normal running angle?

I have tried it both at normal running and all the way trimmed down but haven't been able to really look at it closely. Was actually surprised that it didn't appear to show with the motor trimmed all the way down, but the sun was shining directly on the screen so I couldn't see really fine detail.

I'll try to remember next time I am out (hopefully tomorrow) and do a recording and some snapshots for closer examination.....

Straw

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2013, 11:38:23 AM »
Well guys, finally I was able to take the boat out of the water, install the fishfinder and transducer, then get it back out for a test drive back to my dock.

I ended up installing it in a very similar location to strawdg.  I'll try to get some pictures of the location when i get a chance.

The sonar works when I go slow, it also was holding bottom perfectly up to my boats top speed.  So that was very nice to see.  It wasn't throwing a tall rooster tail either, just spitting up some water and hitting the bottom of the motor so not a big deal.

Then just before I got to my dock I slowed down and recorded some images as I moved toward it.  It was quite amazing, I didn't see anything in most of the bay, just an unremarkable basin for part of it.  But when I moved closer to my dock, about 30-40 feet out, i found a strip of boulders running parallel to shore.  This could explain the walleye hanging around my dock on a regular basis. 
I've attached the first capture, you can see the boulder strip at the far left of the 2D/DI, and at the bottom of the SI.  I just clipped the edge of it to, but it continued to the left at least another 60 feet.

Then at the right of 2D/DI and top of SI there is a weird circular patch with a bright suspended spot.  Any idea what this could be?

Also, I'm not sure if I see any fish hanging around, does anyone see any (maybe that long medium-light spot  on the mid-right SI is a big musky?  :p )

Thanks again for everyone's input on my install, I am very happy with it and now it's just a matter of learning the best settings and speed for my lake to get the optimal picture.

Adam

Offline CHOOhonets

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2013, 08:55:45 AM »
Sorry, didn't want to create a new topic for my question:
Will the HDSI transducer work will with the Deep-V set-up enclosed?
Thank you in advance!

Offline 4d-rock

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Re: SI transducer placement on Aluminum
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2013, 12:32:03 PM »
I don't see why it wouldn't.  If you look at my pictures, I mounted a transducer plate across the area of both the red and green circles.  Then mounted the HDSI transducer in the red circle location.  I get solid bottom readings all the way up to my top speed (45mph), and as far as I can tell my SI is working well.  I do get a bit of blockage from my motor when it is trimmed all the way down though, not a huge deal as all it does is create a line in the water column.

You can also look at Strawdg's install on his G3.  Similar install with good results. 

Good luck


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